00:50:40 rayh has joined #emc-devel 00:51:51 Where can I get info about the ubuntu and the emc related packages? 00:52:32 for info on ubuntu in general, there's ubuntu.org 00:52:52 cradek has the info on emc packages for it 00:53:08 I'm thinking of the speciics on the emc related packages. We need a wiki page on this. 00:53:14 he has a script (from his website?) for doing the install 00:53:16 yep 00:54:22 The only ubuntu I see on the wiki is the stuff from Lawrence and Paul. 00:54:44 I'm not sure there is any more info, but I agree that there should be 00:54:49 (in the wiki) 00:55:31 I guess I'll have to visit timeguy or whatever. How you doing this evening? 00:55:39 ok, you? 00:56:06 Worked out in the wind today. Sawmill stuff. Kinda wiped out. 00:56:19 I can imagine. is it still cold there? 00:56:35 Started about 0 and got up to near 15 00:56:44 http://www.timeguy.com/cradek/emc/ubuntu 00:56:46 balmy :) 00:56:54 Thanks for the link. 00:56:58 sure 00:57:14 balmy it is. The 500mcm wire was just a bit stiff though. 00:57:28 500mcm - what's the diameter of that? 00:58:37 about 1 1/8 inch with the insulation. 00:58:48 ok - 0.850" - thick! 00:58:59 copper? 00:59:05 4 of em into a 4 inch conduit. 00:59:20 that's a bitch to bend in any weather 00:59:32 near a ton of copper in that one run. 00:59:33 even 7/8 aluminum isn't trivial 01:00:10 yep - should be about 1 pound for every 4 inches (plus the insulation) 01:00:11 A few years ago I pulled some wire like this with first time copper. 01:00:28 It was really easy to bend. Today's alloyed stuff is really a bitch. 01:00:54 heh, I'm not sure a human could do it to beryllium copper 01:01:03 and definitely not phosphor bronze 01:02:45 Right. This is just trash/copper. Recycled in these metals leaves something to be desired. 01:03:21 Anyway. The wire is in and connected at both ends. 01:03:36 cool, you have a new 600A service now ;) 01:03:47 or a very beefy DSL line 01:03:59 Now for 300 amps of 480 volt phase converter and we'll be ready to connect machines. 01:04:19 Don't I wish DSL was here, or even close. 01:04:23 heh 01:04:35 as I recall, you even have horizon troubles with satellite 01:04:53 This spring I'll put up a tower and get someone in town to host a directional 802 01:05:02 pringles cans to the rescue 01:05:09 That's it. 01:05:12 (plus you get to eat the pringles) 01:05:24 rofl 01:05:55 I thought I'd have to build a CNC parabola spinner. 01:05:59 or conversely, you have to eat the pringles (depending on diets and stuff) 01:06:13 see food diet. 01:06:14 there's a good reason to have an ellipse command in emc :) 01:06:18 me too 01:06:27 I just try to not look at crappy food 01:06:48 double bacon cheeseburger for lunch. 01:06:56 near barf all afternoon. 01:07:02 yummy - especially with mushrooms and Guacamole 01:07:30 Oh I went for the health food version, lettuce and tomatoe. 01:07:34 tomato. 01:07:46 tomatoes are fine too 01:07:54 as long as they're ripe 01:08:23 Vine ripened. It's a UP dream. 01:08:37 Happens usually one day in september. 01:09:03 yummy - especially with buffalo mozzarella, basil, and a bit of oil and vinegar (balsamic) drizzsled on 01:09:41 Yep. That is a favorite (usually sheep cheese) in Germany. 01:10:12 heh - or exactly as I described, in Italy (insalata Caprese, or Capri salad) 01:10:27 Nice. 01:10:54 also made well at Guido's italian restaurant, in Los Angeles :) 01:12:00 There are not many so called Italian restaurants in the USA that I like. Usually avoid 'em if they call themselves that. 01:12:12 yep 01:12:18 I think it's just called Guido's 01:12:21 But next time in LA I will have to visit Guido's. 01:12:28 11950 Santa Monica, I think 01:12:49 Okay. 01:13:03 oops - 11980 01:13:18 Close enough. 01:13:24 it's been a couple of years since I've been there :) 01:14:09 You thinking about attending CNC-Workshop? 01:14:15 considering it. 01:14:24 I'll have to see how the camera project goes though 01:14:48 I wonder if having a code group part of each day would be good. 01:15:13 for the workshop? I'm not sure 01:15:14 JMK and I had talked about a code week after but it makes a long time away from home. 01:15:20 yep 01:15:45 hi all 01:15:53 Hi Chris. 01:16:01 maybe run classes or retrofits half day and do coding the other half, but I'm not sure 01:16:03 hi Chris 01:16:21 I always feel like I'm missing out on whatever else is going on 01:16:28 I was thinking I could lecture on the beginning stuff while you guys code. 01:16:42 heh - "Loudmouth duties" :) 01:16:43 Then of course evenings would be taken up with code+ 01:17:10 That's it. 01:17:26 it also depends on what else is going on - there may be things that the emc folk want to attend, so that cuts into coding (or sleep) time 01:17:28 What do you think Chris? 01:18:09 My guess is that the code stuff will be as much architecting as writing. 01:18:15 Much like last year. 01:18:17 I think I'll be able to come 01:18:25 but it's my first so I don't know what it's about 01:18:30 does anyone (other than Paul) have a copy of his lathe code? 01:18:56 SWPadnos: nobody has ever seen it afaik 01:18:59 my first CNC workshop as well, if I make it 01:19:00 Would you want a code and coder only time 01:19:14 Paul said that it was not compatable with emc2 01:19:17 well - at least a time separate from the cnc workshop 01:19:21 rayh: if we have goals, I think that would be great 01:19:44 I would let you guys make up the goals for coding sessions. 01:19:45 look over the 2004 and 2005 fest goals, and I think threading will be #1 :( 01:19:57 personally I'm struggling with the concept of paying money to help people convert machines and give away (for free) the software I helped write (for free) 01:20:04 heh 01:20:10 (I'm serious) 01:20:19 yeah - I'd hope that the fest people could get in for free or something 01:20:21 I agree 01:20:43 it feels wrong since we're providers, not consumers 01:20:53 seems there should be a difference. 01:20:53 I understand. Roland does have a lot of expense. Tents and porta-potties and such. 01:21:12 We do fit into the thing a bit different than the average. 01:21:15 actually, there should be CDs available, and we should sell them for a small fee (like $5), and use the cash to fund the llinuxcnc.org website 01:21:17 I'm sure that's very true 01:21:49 well - if we can teach some classes, that shoud be taken into consideration for entrance fees 01:21:54 SWPadnos: I'd rather get in free, and give away CDs (even at my expense) 01:22:18 I plan to order ubuntu a stack of CDs 01:22:21 err 01:22:27 I plan to order a stack of ubuntu CDs 01:22:29 That would be great.\ 01:22:36 sure - I'm just thinking about getting the website onto a faster server, which costs some $ 01:22:47 not the most important thing, but still 01:22:50 true 01:22:55 You bet. 01:23:47 the dreamhost rates are really good. I can set up a discount certificate that gets $97 off the fees as well (I can just donate my referral fee) 01:23:59 s/fee/reward/ 01:24:59 dreamhost does seem good 01:25:05 I'm not convinced that we should host it on a site that has a charge for over xxx per month. 01:25:06 I think jepler has looked into them 01:25:37 rayh: I think their limits are really high 01:25:55 and the cost of on tb? 01:25:57 1.6 TB/month transfer, 60GB storage, for $15.95/month 01:25:58 rayh: but I know how you feel 01:26:12 that includes a prepayment discount 01:26:16 http://www.dreamhost.com/shared/comparison.html 01:26:30 code monster is what I have (for cncgear.com) 01:26:42 we would never get near that unless we hosted some very popular ISOs 01:26:43 I guess I just got spoiled by tbl when he was at Sherline. 01:27:00 and I doubt we'll ever host ISOs again 01:27:11 every time they have a new special, they give you the new deal (I started at 7.68G storage and 256G transfer) 01:27:12 yeah he was sure a big help 01:27:19 I don't think I'd say that. 01:27:30 An ISO is very nice. 01:27:40 For folk who are web challenged. 01:27:42 I think an ISO is pretty critical 01:27:57 if it had just our packages, it would be small, that's fine 01:28:01 I meant a 600M iso 01:28:14 it still won't get too high - cncgear is around 120G/month, and it's all the BDI ISO 01:28:16 That's exactly what I mean also. 01:28:47 well - given the choice of what I've seen of puppy, and th eBDI4.x, I'd take the 600M ISO 01:28:57 puppy is cool, but looks childish at this point 01:28:59 SWPadnos: try my ubuntu packages then 01:29:07 it's about 10 years behind the curve for UI design 01:29:18 I got another complaint today about the dead brown screen. 01:29:27 I will. I may even plop in some 64-bit ones one day 01:29:41 rayh: who? what hardware? what stage in the install? 01:29:43 I wish I had it so I could at least pretend to know what's going on. 01:29:55 I can mail you an ISO if you like 01:29:55 rayh: sure is taking a while to get your CDs to you 01:30:00 I mean, a disc 01:30:24 rayh: did it give errors during the earlier stages of the install? 01:30:26 you sent some already? 01:30:41 ubuntu will send them to you for free if you just ask. ray asked 01:30:45 but I guess they're a little slow. 01:30:47 ah - OK 01:31:09 No folk are downloading ubuntu and getting ready to try the emc install. 01:31:20 hmmm - should the ubuntu packages work for a BDI? 01:31:35 rayh: "No" is a bit of an overstatement 01:31:45 SWPadnos: don't know 01:31:54 SWPadnos: probably not 01:31:57 I'd say that no "customers" are doing that - only early adopters and developers 01:32:06 Don't think it will without some sort of apt mixed packages. 01:32:12 sure, that's because there hasn't been an announcement 01:32:20 well, they're both debian/apt based 01:32:35 SWPadnos: the depends will be wrong - kernel versions etc 01:32:37 sarge v breezy 01:32:42 right - it's better to have a single CD with the correct packages - like the BDI 01:32:44 ok 01:32:56 SWPadnos: I disagree totally 01:33:13 I should be able to --force the versions in the emc repository, but it probably isn't worth it 01:33:22 in addition to the .deb based system 01:33:40 How much trouble would it be to build a deb for BDI? 01:33:45 SWPadnos: if you run my kernel, rtai, and emc packages together, it might work 01:33:59 that's what I was thinking, but it's still too much bother ;) 01:34:01 rayh: if we picked one version and people didn't update parts of it, pretty easy 01:34:17 Okay. 01:34:18 rayh: as soon as they change kernels, rtai, etc, our package won't work anymore. 01:34:55 rayh: I am doing this because I think it's best for us to have control of all the necessary packages together. Otherwise we're always guessing how to match up. 01:35:10 Sure. I'm pretty convinced that we must think of kernel, real-time, and emc as an entity. 01:35:24 it's true (if a bit unfortunate) 01:35:37 with precompiled stuff, that's 100% true 01:35:37 I understand your reasoning and agree totally. 01:35:52 I wonder how difficult it would be to split out HAL, RTAPI, and emc 01:36:03 difficult, I imagine 01:36:15 there would have to be a very good reason to do that work 01:36:25 well - RTAPI is pretty stable 01:36:37 HAL is fairly stable (only needs updating when a component changes) 01:36:58 Having more than one distro out there makes any exclusive claims mute. 01:37:08 though HAL has changed more than emc proper lately 01:37:14 what do you mean by exclusive claims? 01:37:36 That "this distro" is the real EMC. 01:38:01 that's one reason for having "no distro", and emc as an application 01:38:12 SWPadnos: exactly right 01:38:14 like any of the Windows based controllers 01:38:17 it *is* an application 01:38:33 it's just very picky how it runs 01:38:35 It will never even approach being just another app. 01:38:51 rayh: wait until you install it on ubuntu before you think that 01:38:59 it's close now, actually - it just has more specific kernel requirements than most apps 01:39:00 rayh: I worked really hard to make it as easy as any other app. 01:39:11 You have not heard the horror stories I have already. 01:39:32 rayh: then how am I supposed to help? 01:39:48 You are doing great. 01:39:50 rayh: I've had some good bug reports (from jmk) and fixed the problems he ran into 01:40:15 I saw that. 01:40:25 rayh: I was hoping he would pop in tonight, to see how my latest fixes worked 01:40:33 there should be an ubuntu category for the SF tracker, maybe 01:40:57 I'd put it on the wiki. 01:41:05 Rather than making it a part of sf. 01:41:17 that's good for install info, but bug reports are a different story 01:41:36 here's where it gets confusing 01:41:48 I don't see how a ubuntu bug with finding a cdrom is an EMC specific problem. 01:42:02 If someone can't install ubuntu and get it to run BEFORE anything with emc2, there are other bug trackers more appropriate than theirs. 01:42:04 well - that's different ;) 01:42:05 rayh: exactly 01:42:13 err than OURS 01:42:30 And the BDI shouldered all of that burden. 01:42:42 right, and I believe that's the wrong way to go about it. 01:42:53 To make a single system that worked across a very wide range of machines. 01:43:00 install problems - those are generally rare for ubuntu - do you know the hardware these people had problems with? 01:43:16 You realize that you are talking to the inventor of the BDI? 01:43:21 rayh: jmk had to boot the kernel with "noapic" for his network card to work 01:43:53 I think the idea is that the emc developers should be concerned with emc, not necessarily the OS that it runs on 01:43:56 rayh: no, I didn't, but that doesn't change my opinion 01:44:20 argh, the message about noapic was for SWPadnos 01:44:24 though it's definitely helpful to provide a BDI-type install, and deal with tech support issues that arise from it 01:44:26 Sure. It is not the responsibility of the EMC core to make a full distribution. 01:44:33 I'm on my terrible laptop keyboard 01:44:45 Yuck. 01:45:05 regarding ubuntu - I know it's great with modern hardware, I'm not so sure about older hardware - the kind of machine that people would relegate to running emc (or that has an SIA slot) 01:45:16 ISA - duh 01:45:39 SWPadnos: there seems to be problems in recent 2.6 kernels that require fiddling with apic boot flags 01:45:42 my dyslexia didn't even notice. 01:45:50 heh 01:46:01 SWPadnos: I think that's fixed in my kernel, but in the installer kernel it's a problem. 01:46:08 sometimes - possibly for buggy BIOSes 01:46:12 There are huge problems with the entire 2.6 kernel and rtai or any other real-time system. 01:46:22 exactly (linux complains bitterly about those BIOSes) 01:46:36 linuS 01:46:38 I had no trouble on my dual Opteron machine (installing from a SATA DVD-RW to an SATA HD) 01:47:01 I have also not had problems, but jepler had trouble on his laptop, jmk on his desktop 01:47:03 I haven't been able to install Windows 2000 on that machine (even SP4), nor Gentoo 01:47:06 Try getting a 2.6 from HardHat or WindRiver or ... 01:47:07 both were fixed by twiddling apic boot flags 01:47:21 cool 01:47:32 I bet the next ubuntu release will be better 01:47:45 I saw on their wiki they are collecting data about the apic problem and intend to come up with a fix 01:47:58 rayh, the people you've talked to had problems with the initial install (like not getting through it, or not being able to reboot into ubuntu)? 01:48:01 but even now it's easy to work around 01:48:04 yep 01:48:30 Hardware issues mostly. 01:48:45 solvable, or did they just move on to BDI? 01:49:04 (and if so, did that work?) 01:49:13 Went back to BDI. 01:49:17 Most of em. 01:49:31 how many people have failed and how many succeeded? 01:49:32 That is why I was asking about the ease of making a BDI deb. 01:49:41 I don't expect paul to do it any time soon. 01:49:52 BDI4.40 is expected this summer 01:50:00 but I could set up a 4.38 and do the compile here. 01:50:06 he has also removed AXIS from his bdi because jepler wanted him to provide source 01:50:07 according to a message on the new mailing list 01:50:57 Would we get conflicts in the debian directory at sf if we try to make two versions? 01:50:59 it's probably not too difficult to make any needed changes to the .deb build info (whatever that file is called) 01:51:15 one would be under sarge/, the other under breezy/, so probably not 01:51:20 rayh: sort of - you would have a few files different to build it. 01:51:58 rayh: it would take a couple iterations to get right, but it probably wouldn't be too hard. 01:52:23 rayh: do you know when people get the brown screen? 01:52:29 I understand. Not for right now. I'll think more about it after the release of the source. 01:52:56 No I don't understand enough about the system to get past their frustration. 01:53:10 I do have a fellow overnighting me a disk. 01:53:32 well write down this for next time: at the first prompt instead of just hitting enter, type 'linux noapic' 01:53:47 I did. 01:53:52 I think that would have been the only thing jmk would have had to do and it would have been perfect 01:54:00 it's really similar to almost any other distro - except that it uses gnome by default, instead of KDE 01:54:01 We should build the kernel without. 01:54:06 I did 01:54:13 it usually works, and it's needed on some machines 01:54:13 but that doesn't help the install of course 01:54:28 kubuntu? 01:54:35 but probably not the ones that people would use for emc 01:54:42 kubuntu is KDE-based by default 01:55:10 didn't look like it was being maintained as well as ubuntu. 01:55:22 I think it's much newer 01:55:27 haven't looked at it myself 01:55:38 (all desktop environments look the same to me anyway) 01:55:43 In the long run, I've got my money on RedHat. 01:55:47 I installed the kubuntu packages after installing "normal" ubuntu 01:55:52 it works fine 01:56:06 $5 a share to $26 right now 01:56:15 rayh: it's true someone could build rpms just like my recent debs 01:56:15 But my heart is with SuSE. 01:56:35 I bought at $60 about 5 years ago (and almost made money) 01:57:06 Google at 60! 01:57:32 that's why the tech bubble burst you know - it was my $1000 investment 01:57:53 same with the snowless winter - I bought a snowblower 01:58:04 They saw you coming and timed it just after. 01:58:13 if you need rain, let me know - I'll leave my raincoat at home 01:58:16 Buy those in the spring. 01:58:22 SWPadnos: thanks for the winter 01:58:44 any time - but look out - when the snowblower breaks, it'll snow 01:59:16 SWPadnos: in about May, buy a new air conditioner please 01:59:23 That's the truth. Or when the neighbor's jeep is t-s up. 01:59:31 ok - that sounds like a good idea 01:59:39 our has been getting loud and not too cold 01:59:50 aha 02:00:47 Gotta get out of here, guys. Thanks. 02:00:51 hmmm - BDI doesn't have udev, right? 02:00:54 see you later 02:01:00 don't know 02:01:02 by ray 02:01:06 bye ray 02:01:14 nope no udev. it conflicts with rtai. 02:01:26 rayh: (I fixed that) 02:01:26 rayh has quit 02:01:27 not on ubuntu, I gather 02:01:37 no, all you have to do is do it right 02:01:53 I'm just looking at all the files in emc2/debian, to see what might have to change for BDI 02:02:16 some I haven't checked in, because they'll be wrong for other systems 02:02:37 udev and gnome menu entries come to mind 02:03:05 yep, plus the RT dir is /usr/realtime-2.6.12.6-magma 02:03:22 yes those dirs are different 02:04:24 ok - and some of the dependency package names 02:04:32 (like RTAI) 02:04:36 right 02:04:49 and not much else, it seems 02:05:04 probably not much else. Like I said it'll take a few tries. 02:05:31 well - I may take a stab at it, or I can test any changes you suggest 02:05:45 though I'm on BDI4.30 right now, not 4.38 02:06:08 I think ray still suggests people use 4.30 02:06:15 I don't suggest 02:06:25 so I have no idea what deb we'd build if we decide to do one. 02:06:30 yep, but I think it's due to the differences in installed packages 02:06:37 * cradek shrugs 02:06:45 not necessarily issues with 4.38 02:07:44 in theory, if I replace the sources file with the one line for these packages, and then install all necessary packages (emc, rati, kernel ...), it should work anyway 02:07:50 as you said - use them all as a set 02:08:53 hmmm - you know, we could just transfer the linuxcnc.org domain to my dreamhost account 02:09:15 I don't think it'll go over the transfer limit, and there would be no cost (until I need the bandwidth, which will probably be a while) 02:09:17 that's an interesting thought 02:10:21 I can add unlimited user accounts, email addresses, etc 02:10:32 there's also CVS/SVN support, and phpbb forums 02:10:34 I'm tempted to take you up on the offer to host my packages 02:10:35 etc etc 02:10:59 jmkasunich has joined #emc-devel 02:11:05 hi jmk! 02:11:06 do you have transfer stats for them? 02:11:09 hi jmk 02:11:10 you missed ray by 10 minutes 02:11:15 hi 02:11:25 SWPadnos: I don't understand the question 02:11:59 jmkasunich: google says you can put "linux noapic" at the initial ubuntu install boot prompt to fix the problems you had 02:12:00 is that "ray wanted to talk to me" (or "ray was talking about things that would interest me", or just "ray was here, now he's not"? 02:12:11 the middle one probably 02:12:19 we talked about packaging some 02:12:29 logger_devel: bookmark 02:12:29 See http://solaris.cs.utt.ro/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emcdevel/2006-02-10#T02-12-29 02:12:33 I go for door number three :) 02:13:04 cradek, I was wondering how much bandwidth has been used by people downloading the packages 02:13:06 axis even 02:13:14 (like the CVS tarballs and stuff) 02:13:28 SWPadnos: we would have to ask jepler about that 02:13:34 SWPadnos: I'm only taking about the debs though 02:14:08 the ones that are at dsplabs...ro 02:14:15 ok - I can ask alex 02:14:35 very few people are using the so far - the data would not be useful 02:14:41 true 02:15:25 theM 02:15:40 yO bOyZ! 02:15:52 this laptop kb is awful 02:16:06 I can't stand them - I actually carry a full size ketyboard when I travel 02:16:15 and I have a big laptop with a relatively nice keyboard 02:16:40 I only like my IBM Model M - not appropriate for a coffee shop 02:16:56 heh - much smaller than my 8500DV, I think 02:17:21 I mean my full-size keyboard is the IBM 02:17:35 but way too loud to use in a public place 02:17:37 ah - the old clicky keyboard with the 15-foot cord ;) 02:17:42 yeah that one 02:17:58 it has an interesting feature that my wife needed for her grad school 02:18:07 I have a stash of them, but I don't need it because they never break 02:18:13 it properly registers 6 keys being pressed at once 02:18:16 what's that? 02:18:18 haha 02:18:22 I'm not surprised 02:18:24 very good for brailling 02:18:59 most modern keyboards don't work, including my personal favorite, the Keytronic EO3600QLPS2 02:19:01 I have never understood why braille isn't typed on a normal keyboard 02:19:16