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17:05:32 <rayh> logger_devel: bookmark
17:05:32 <rayh> See http://solaris.cs.utt.ro/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emcdevel/2006-01-01#T17-05-32
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17:58:57 <rayh> alex_joni_: I put the sudo in emc.in for emcio.
17:59:12 <alex_joni_> seen the commit
17:59:29 <rayh> think I wrote a wrong message but...
17:59:41 <alex_joni_> you wrote emcsh in the commit message
17:59:50 <rayh> ah.
18:00:01 <alex_joni_> which made me wonder :D
18:00:12 <rayh> looks like with this change io runs as root while emcsh, and the gui stuff runs as user.
18:00:23 <cradek> rayh: was that commit supposed to be a one line change?  Many lines were changed for some reason
18:00:27 <alex_joni_> that's good
18:00:43 <alex_joni_> cradek: noticed it too, yet nothing seems changed for all that lines
18:00:48 <rayh> How were they changed.
18:00:56 <cradek> not sure
18:00:59 <alex_joni_> indenting
18:01:03 <alex_joni_> from what I'm reading
18:01:09 <alex_joni_> - CFGFILE=$INI_DIR/$CFGFILE
18:01:09 <alex_joni_> +  CFGFILE=$INI_DIR/$CFGFILE
18:01:16 <alex_joni_> that's one example
18:01:17 <rayh> I cvs up'ed and then changed the one line.
18:01:48 <alex_joni_> maybe you used a different editor, which needed to change stuff :)
18:01:53 <cradek> rayh: your editor must do things you don't want
18:02:19 <alex_joni_> in this case it doesn't really matter
18:02:35 <rayh> can we see what i did?
18:02:55 <alex_joni_> the commit message holds all the changes
18:02:57 <cradek> working on it...
18:03:08 <alex_joni_> mostly (if not all), are changes from ' ' to '  '
18:03:13 <alex_joni_> in front of the lines
18:04:03 <cradek> looks like a lot of indention got screwed up
18:04:12 <cradek> where there used to be 8 spaces there are now 2
18:04:18 <cradek> so things are indented wrong
18:05:01 <rayh> ah my default intent is 2 for tickle.  I suppose we should pas it thorugh some sort of standard formatter.
18:05:05 <cradek> for instance look at the block starting at line 500
18:05:16 <rayh> Do folk stilluse 8 for standard indent.
18:05:57 <cradek> rayh: the problem is your editor changed dozens of lines you didn't touch
18:05:59 <rayh> Is there a standard formatter we were using.
18:06:09 <rayh> I hear you!
18:06:17 <alex_joni_> not for scripts, there is indent configured for .c and .h
18:06:19 <cradek> nope there really isn't
18:06:44 <alex_joni_> but scripts are usually non-standard with indenting
18:06:48 <rayh> What I usggest then is that you revert to a previous version,
18:07:12 <rayh> I'll make a bug report and let youse guys fix ie eh.
18:07:40 <alex_joni_> rayh: it's no big problem
18:07:48 <cradek> rayh: I fixed the indentation but kept your change, np
18:07:50 <alex_joni_> at least not for emc.in
18:08:15 <alex_joni_> but it might be a problem for important stuff, where these changes would just hide the obvious
18:08:38 <alex_joni_> I always do a cvs diff before commiting, and checking that it contains only what I intend to commit
18:08:46 <rayh> I had planned a couple hundred fixes to the config stuff.
18:08:55 <cradek> I agree reformatting and significant changes should always be in different commits
18:09:14 <cradek> rayh: what editor did you use?  Maybe we can figure out how to configure it
18:09:18 <rayh> kwrite
18:09:33 <rayh> I have it configured for 2 spaces for indent
18:09:37 <rayh> deliberately.
18:09:46 <rayh> what would you prefer that I use.
18:09:50 <alex_joni_> that's ok for new stuff you write
18:10:05 <alex_joni_> but it shouldn't later existing files without asking, that's intrusive imho
18:10:13 <alex_joni_> * alex_joni_ uses mcedit usually
18:10:16 <rayh> I'm guessing that it also does that for stuff it opens.
18:10:53 <cradek> rayh: I would hope you could turn that off...
18:11:21 <rayh> I presume that I can set aside a editor someplace that will operate without reformatting.
18:11:32 <cradek> rayh: some editors also change between spaces and tabs without asking, and I think that's wrong behavior too - cvs considers changes like that relevant
18:11:58 <rayh> I don't believe that tabs ought to be a part of code.
18:12:02 <cradek> rayh: sounds like an answer
18:12:10 <alex_joni_> and other editors display tabs/spaces differently
18:12:41 <cradek> I don't intend to debate particulars of formatting
18:13:11 <cradek> I'm just saying we all need to use cvs-friendly editors (or editors configured in a cvs-friendly way)
18:13:12 <rayh> I guess we decided a while back that the way it was formatted by the first author was the way it remained?
18:13:34 <rayh> I'll try to keep that in mind for future commits.
18:13:39 <cradek> rayh: I tend to agree - I think mass reformatting is always bad.
18:13:53 <cradek> rayh: (when using cvs)
18:13:59 <rayh> It did make a mess the last time it was done.
18:14:00 <alex_joni_> rayh: we have CodeStyle
18:14:03 <alex_joni_> "Now, some people will claim that having 8-character indentations makes
18:14:04 <alex_joni_> the code move too far to the right, and makes it hard to read on a
18:14:04 <alex_joni_> 80-character terminal screen. Whilst the GNU style of 2-character
18:14:04 <alex_joni_> indentations reduces the clarity. For EMC2, a compromise of 4-character
18:14:04 <alex_joni_> indentation has been chosen. This still spreads the code out and causes
18:14:04 <alex_joni_> lines to wrap round leading to difficulties in reading the sources. The
18:14:06 <alex_joni_> answer to that is that if you need more than 3 levels of indentation, you're
18:14:08 <alex_joni_> screwed anyway, and should fix your program.
18:15:30 <alex_joni_> but that's under /src/, so it might not apply to tcl and scripts
18:15:47 <rayh> tickle makes a pretty common 4-5 indent
18:15:53 <rayh> at least the way I write it.
18:15:59 <alex_joni_> cradek: btw, did you get a commit message about the ini files?
18:16:03 <alex_joni_> * alex_joni_ didn't
18:16:14 <cradek> alex_joni_: which?
18:16:28 <alex_joni_> I reverted a lot of ini's on emc1
18:16:34 <alex_joni_> they still had RUM stuff in them
18:16:53 <cradek> rayh: it's my opinion that you can indent your new code any way you like, contrary to CodeStyle or not
18:16:57 <rayh> Let's discuss config formats and see if we can reach consensus about a few issues.
18:17:11 <cradek> alex_joni_: no, I didn't see those
18:17:12 <alex_joni_> * alex_joni_ agrees
18:17:16 <rayh> I'll switch kwrite to 4 here.
18:17:34 <alex_joni_> cradek: strange, I didn't get those either, yet the commit is there, and there was a CIA message about it
18:18:15 <cradek> let me check the email config
18:19:23 <cradek> ^emc /cvsroot/sitedocs/CVSROOT/cvstools/syncmail -u %{sVv} emc-commit@lists.sourceforge.net
18:19:34 <cradek> err
18:19:41 <cradek> ^emc\/ /cvsroot/sitedocs/CVSROOT/cvstools/syncmail -u %{sVv} emc-commit@lists.sourceforge.net
18:19:53 <cradek> those should still go to emc-commit
18:20:03 <alex_joni_> right
18:20:39 <alex_joni_> * alex_joni_ looks under administrative tasks
18:21:16 <rayh> odd.  kwrite was not setup to change on save.
18:21:19 <alex_joni_> nope :(
18:24:59 <cradek> rayh: what were you saying about config formats?
18:25:31 <rayh> I'd like to see some standardization in the hal files
18:25:42 <alex_joni_> example?
18:25:43 <rayh> and how they relate to ini
18:26:22 <rayh> I'd also like to see them startup with a minimum of hardware interface required
18:26:53 <rayh> for example limit switch inputs should be set so that they don't prevent running.
18:26:57 <alex_joni_> you are talking about common hal stuff or hardware specific halstuff?
18:27:14 <alex_joni_> core_stepper vs. standard_pinout ?
18:27:19 <rayh> I'm thinkinf of both.
18:27:31 <rayh> and I can't type for crap.
18:27:51 <cradek> if you get 90% of the letters write we can still read it fine
18:28:06 <rayh> That may be asking a lot.
18:28:28 <rayh> For the example servo systems.
18:28:58 <rayh> I'd like to see them use about the same order of hal stuff.
18:29:17 <rayh> across all the servo ones.
18:29:44 <alex_joni_> maybe one way to do that is split stuff in smaller hal files
18:29:59 <cradek> I have another idea too
18:30:10 <alex_joni_> or maybe have more common stuff.. (I'm just thinking ideology, without looking at specifics now)
18:30:16 <rayh> Right.  in univstep i separated out the load and addf
18:30:21 <alex_joni_> cradek: shoot
18:30:23 <cradek> the sim has some differentiators to give signals xpos,xvel,xacc ... that can be seen in halscope
18:30:37 <cradek> I think that's so useful it should be added to core-stepper and core-servo
18:30:49 <rayh> right i did a similar thing in univstep but not complete
18:31:01 <alex_joni_> right.. how about this:
18:31:20 <alex_joni_> 1. have a common_emc (where all the motion specific stuff happens, axes, vels' acc's, etc)
18:31:30 <alex_joni_> 2. next have either common_servo or stepper
18:31:46 <alex_joni_> 3. next have aditional common files (to load PID, limits, whatever)
18:32:00 <alex_joni_> 4. have specific HW hal's (templates)
18:32:20 <alex_joni_> 5. have specific HW hal's (defined by the integrator)
18:33:14 <cradek> yes, it would be nice if the code for stg limit switches was in stg-limit-switches.hal for instance
18:33:28 <rayh> In univstep I added a 4th axis.
18:33:34 <cradek> it would seem simpler to someone trying to find the right thing to edit
18:34:16 <rayh> I had another idea that i got from halcmd save
18:34:53 <rayh> if we make the load commands separate, we could easily configure all of the rest of hal from
18:35:05 <rayh> a gui
18:35:14 <alex_joni> ok, so load first
18:35:21 <alex_joni> then connect
18:35:23 <alex_joni> then tune ?
18:35:31 <rayh> yes.
18:35:57 <rayh> One problem with the save way is that the ini file is only going to be honored the first time around.
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18:38:35 <rayh> I like this approach
18:38:37 <rayh> <alex_joni> ok, so load first
18:38:38 <rayh> <alex_joni> then connect
18:38:38 <rayh> <alex_joni> then tune ?
18:38:38 <rayh> <rayh> yes.
18:38:48 <alex_joni> thanks..
18:38:50 <rayh> oops
18:39:03 <alex_joni> I have a ssh client set up :)
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18:39:38 <alex_joni_> I hate it when this happens :(
18:40:06 <rayh> proves you are supposed to be on holiday not on irc.
18:40:08 <alex_joni> anyways, back to config
18:40:14 <alex_joni> rayh: probably
18:40:29 <alex_joni> but I'm not letting it defeat me :D
18:40:35 <alex_joni> fighting back at all cost :P
18:40:50 <rayh> that's the spirit.
18:41:08 <alex_joni> I think that approach might be doable..
18:41:21 <alex_joni> but it has the downside of splitting stuff in a lot of files
18:41:30 <alex_joni> if we do them each in a differnet file
18:42:00 <rayh> maybe separate sections of a single file.
18:42:06 <rayh> after the core_xx
18:42:37 <rayh> I guess I'm thinking of a written page that describes what a new integrator
18:42:38 <alex_joni> right
18:42:39 <SWP_Away> it would be nice to have a cross between a hal file and an ini file - a hal file with sections
18:42:41 <SWP_Away> hi
18:42:47 <rayh> will find when they open up a config.
18:42:56 <alex_joni> hi Swampy
18:43:16 <alex_joni> rayh: that's a must
18:43:24 <alex_joni> we are lacking quite a bit of documentation
18:43:39 <alex_joni> especially for the new stuff
18:43:59 <rayh> If we had them all layed out the same a single description would do the job.
18:44:18 <rayh> and that could be a part of Hal_Introduction.pdf
18:44:39 <alex_joni> I think this goes beyond HAL_Introduction
18:44:49 <alex_joni> or maybe the name is not perfectly fit for it
18:45:22 <rayh> Right.  much of the introduction is reference now.
18:45:51 <alex_joni_> HAL_Introduction should stay HAL_Introduction
18:45:56 <alex_joni_> the examples in there are nice
18:46:10 <alex_joni_> but HAL_EMC_config stuff is a whole different story
18:49:52 <rayh> phone
18:50:10 <alex_joni_> ok.. I'm booting a linux, to work on the tcl stuff
18:50:10 <alex_joni_> brb
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18:50:26 <alex_joni> my screen will be here ;)
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19:13:49 <alex_joni_> you still there guys?
19:15:04 <rayh> yep
19:17:43 <alex_joni_> ok.. just wondering, cause it's quiet
19:26:17 <rayh> Okay.  I'm back
19:26:36 <alex_joni_> * alex_joni_ still busy on the setup stuff
19:26:51 <alex_joni_> I gave up trying to translate "config" "quit" "run"
19:27:39 <rayh> How about we build all of the configs to take advantage of core_xx
19:27:55 <rayh> and then add on the additional stuff
19:28:35 <rayh> If we added a load.hal as a first hal file it would allow either separate
19:28:43 <rayh> file systems or the save notion.
19:29:44 <alex_joni_> * alex_joni_ didn't get that (from the load.hal on)
19:30:09 <rayh> load.hal would be first in the ini file list
19:30:18 <rayh> then core_xx
19:31:04 <rayh> Then the specific
19:31:09 <rayh> * rayh looks back.
19:31:47 <rayh> <alex_joni_> 1. have a common_emc (where all the motion specific stuff happens, axes, vels' acc's, etc)
19:31:47 <rayh> <alex_joni_> 2. next have either common_servo or stepper
19:31:48 <rayh> <alex_joni_> 3. next have aditional common files (to load PID, limits, whatever)
19:31:48 <rayh> <alex_joni_> 4. have specific HW hal's (templates)
19:31:50 <rayh> <alex_joni_> 5. have specific HW hal's (defined by the integrator)
19:31:52 <rayh> <cradek> yes, it would be nice if the code for stg limit switches was in stg-limit-switches.hal for instance
19:32:01 <rayh> I like this sort of layout.
19:32:39 <rayh> under 3 there could be a core_bridgeport.hal
19:34:58 <rayh> HAL is so flexible that there are many ways to handle it's config.
19:38:39 <rayh> brb
19:41:12 <alex_joni_> right
19:50:08 <alex_joni_> gawd I hate this.. :(
19:50:31 <alex_joni_> seems my bad fonts stuff affects de.msg, so I can't commit without trashing it :(
19:54:31 <alex_joni_> alrighty.. that should do it
19:54:48 <alex_joni_> I'll be back later guys
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20:19:53 <rayh> I put up a tarball www.linuxcnc.org/Dropbox/hal_saves.tgz that includes five files saved using the "halcmd save" command.
20:20:35 <rayh> I find this format easier to read and understand that the separate files.
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22:15:43 <calvino.freenode.net> topic is: "Welcome to the Enhanced Machine Control development place. | Regular Developers' meetings 24/7 !"
22:15:43 <calvino.freenode.net> Users on #emc-devel: logger_devel alex_joni jtr_away LawrenceG anonimas1 cradek SWP_Away @ChanServ 
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