03:14:47 SWP_Away is now known as SWPadnos_ 03:53:13 petev has quit 04:05:06 petev has joined #emc-devel 04:11:06 petev has quit 04:13:28 petev has joined #emc-devel 06:21:08 thank you 06:21:24 had to bail u out a bit 06:21:51 yeah - I'd just like for him to tell us why it's so bad for this, not why he hates it 06:22:03 yeah, doesn't seem like he can 06:22:30 nope 06:22:37 sure some range checking, etc will need to be done by emc, but at least the file is dosumented and valie 06:22:46 actually, I'm not sure that XML will really help much for several situations 06:23:17 yeah, there are some limitations, like enums only in attributes 06:23:26 but it's still the best thing I have seen 06:23:29 one - signals. The user has to be able to add an unspecified number of signals, with arbitrary names, to a config 06:23:41 SQL is way over the top, I can't even beleive he suggested it 06:24:00 yeah - he's coming at it from the data transport side 06:24:02 signals aren't a problem 06:24:06 shich is what it was made for 06:24:09 which 06:24:14 XML uses some of the EBNF notation 06:24:29 you can do something like (SIGNAL)* 06:25:35 ok, will a DTD allow you to specify that you can have as many signals as you want, along with as many links as you want, but only one output per signal? :) 06:26:07 I don't see how u would do the one output part 06:26:16 yeah 06:26:20 some stuff will have to get checked at run time 06:26:29 but it's still better than what we got now 06:26:31 and that's probably going to be the most common problem 06:26:35 yep 06:26:49 I think a config program like qconfig would be nice 06:27:11 yeah, a fancy GUI using an XML parser object 06:27:13 but that would have to be modified and maintained by us 06:27:19 true 06:27:31 the simple XML folding tree thing isn't bad 06:27:45 not necessarily XML - the underlying format isn't important as long as the user interface and validation requirements are met 06:28:12 true, but I want to use the XML parser object in EMC to access the data too 06:28:37 I would like task to open the config, create an XML parser object, and pass it around 06:28:38 well, the "config tool" can just write files that emc can understand 06:28:55 yeah, but then we have to write an object to deal with it 06:29:03 that may be 06:29:06 other goal is to reduce EMC to machine control code 06:29:23 there are bindings for a bunch on languages for gnome libxml2 06:29:39 there's another viewpoint on that - that there should be as few external dependencies as possible 06:29:59 right now, stock Linux + RT is enough for emc2 06:30:17 since there is some editor, and probably a compiler, on every linux distro 06:30:26 true, but these are standard packages that most systems probably already have 06:30:32 I didn't 06:30:39 didn't have which? 06:30:41 and I just did a full Ubuntu install on this machine 06:30:49 didn't have any XML editor 06:30:56 or XML libraries 06:31:02 but u can apt-get kxmledit 06:31:07 pretty easys 06:31:27 we can also put one on the BDI 06:31:28 right, but only if I have a debian install, and internet access on the machine (not necessarily the case) 06:31:37 look how many packages emc already needs 06:31:48 we need all the GTK stuff 06:31:50 BDI is gone -there will need to be a different distribution for emc2 06:32:07 why can't we make more BDI without Paul? 06:32:19 I'm not saying it's a deal breaker, only that there will be another viewpoint 06:32:19 did he keep all the anaconda stuff to himself? 06:32:31 because Paul owns the BDI trademark, and it's his baby 06:32:44 he has moved BDI discussion away from SourceForge 06:35:47 SWPadnos is now known as SWP_Away 10:13:34 .part 10:13:36 petev has left #emc-devel 11:16:08 chinamill has joined #emc-devel 11:38:33 chinamill has quit 12:20:28 okalleo has joined #emc-devel 13:51:19 logger_devel has joined #emc-devel 13:51:19 topic is: "Welcome to the Enhanced Machine Control development place. | Regular Developers' meetings 24/7 !" 13:51:19 Users on #emc-devel: logger_devel alex_joni okalleo SWPadnos_ cradek @ChanServ SWP_Away 13:54:04 alex_joni has quit 14:24:41 alex_joni has joined #emc-devel 15:36:39 rayh has joined #emc-devel 15:37:00 rayh has left #emc-devel 15:47:23 * okalleo is away: back in 5min 15:56:50 * okalleo is back 16:03:30 * okalleo is away: will be back soon 16:20:29 alex_joni_ has joined #emc-devel 16:20:43 alex_joni has quit 16:20:47 alex_joni_ is now known as alex_joni 16:25:30 * okalleo is back 16:33:16 alex_joni_ has joined #emc-devel 16:33:27 alex_joni has quit 16:33:31 alex_joni_ is now known as alex_joni 16:46:56 rayh has joined #emc-devel 16:50:32 * okalleo is back 16:56:10 * okalleo is away: wbbs 17:02:21 I got a brute force tcl script running that shows a tree version of hal pins and params. 17:02:38 Just enought so that I can play with some config ideas. 17:02:43 great 17:02:52 hard to work with it? 17:03:04 I mean.. hard to work with HAL in tcl? 17:03:25 No it is easier for big hal configs that the menus that I was trying. 17:03:39 SWP_Away is now known as SWPadnos 17:03:46 morning swampy 17:03:51 morning 17:05:02 ok - now this is annoying 17:05:12 what is? 17:05:15 I'll have to finess it a bit. the [set [set [set $thispinname]]] is aweful. 17:05:35 remember the questrion about emc that I posted yesterday? 17:05:40 no 17:06:05 well - I'll paste in the question, and an answer - typical FUD crap 17:06:14 not my answer, of course 17:06:30 >I looked at EMC a couple years ago when I was looking for a option to 17:06:32 >>Flashcut. Went with Mach2. I hate all the problems with windows and 17:06:34 >>would love to jump to the linux wagon but my problem is how do I 17:06:35 >>create the toolpath in linux? 17:06:36 What problems with windows? 17:06:38 >>Other than my router and quickbooks for me there is no reason to stay 17:06:39 >>with windows. 17:06:41 There's two, and with the endless reinstalls of linux and waiting for 17:06:42 EMC till your old and bald - two more ;) 17:06:44 Steve Blackmore 17:07:31 bleah.. 17:07:37 yeah 17:07:40 what group was this? 17:07:52 yahoo CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO 17:07:56 sorry 17:08:03 Oh thought it was mach10 17:08:06 this was the CNC Toolkit group 17:08:26 url? 17:08:49 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CNC_Toolkit/ 17:08:59 thanks 17:09:04 sure 17:20:30 okalleo has quit 17:37:54 okalleo has joined #emc-devel 17:49:38 * okalleo is away: _ 19:15:36 petev has joined #emc-devel 19:22:31 SWPadnos is now known as SWP_Away 19:30:54 alex_joni has quit 19:48:29 petev has quit 20:32:17 jmkasunich has joined #emc-devel 20:51:11 Hi jmkasunich 20:51:53 hi ray 20:52:26 this is the devel channel, right? 20:52:34 Question. I was trying to reverse the polarity of limits on emc.run 20:52:44 yes 20:53:08 ok, (my IRC client displayed some strange things, probably from autojoin) 20:53:16 ok, polarity 20:53:28 Oh. Right I get that everytime I start it up. 20:53:37 you want to make the limit switches active low or something like that? 20:53:59 I just thought it was old age but can't be if you get it also. 20:54:08 heh 20:54:43 I didn't see limit polarity in ini nor in an axis pin 20:55:04 polarity is addressed at the hardware driver 20:55:12 so once inside the PC, everything is active hi 20:55:46 for an input pin, the driver exports 2 hal pins, parport.0.pin-xx-in, and parport.0.pin-xx-in-not 20:55:54 connect to the -not one and it is inverted 20:56:25 I'm still confused. 20:56:33 I tried hooking a sig to 20:56:52 axis.0.neg-lim-sw-in 20:57:01 and then twiddle the sig 20:57:13 but it said something about not being able to do that. 20:57:34 I don't remember exactly now. Let me try again. 20:59:32 sets to twiddle the signa; 20:59:35 signal 21:00:19 musta been a brain fart last time. works fine now. 21:05:15 ah it's the home that doesn't seem to respond. 21:05:30 the home switch? 21:05:47 I make a signal connect it to home-switch-in and it does not make a difference what the polarity is. 21:06:03 what is your HOME_SEARCH_VEL in the ini? 21:06:04 It always homes as soon as I press the button. 21:06:19 emc.ini stock 21:06:33 if it is zero, then that tells EMC "this machine doesn't have switches, home wherever they push the button" 21:06:41 alex_joni has joined #emc-devel 21:06:50 I think stock emc.ini has zero 21:07:03 shit another undocumented "machine logic" 21:07:21 actually, its very well documented 21:07:31 evening 21:07:34 (but you gotta know where to look :-( 21:07:38 hi alex 21:07:56 how's things john? 21:08:06 not bad 21:08:18 nice.. tried to run a rotary table today 21:08:27 with a mm setup.. that was havoc :/ 21:08:34 I confess I looked for home switch polarity both in the ini and hal and hal but found none. 21:08:44 didn't look in HAL_Int 21:08:46 rayh: http://www.linuxcnc.org/EMC2_Code_Notes.pdf, starting on page 20 21:09:01 that info should probably be moved somewhere more accessible 21:09:05 but its all in there 21:09:13 jmkasunich: okalleo here (previously known as chinamill) is using emc2 with mm setup 21:09:21 and he kept getting ferrors 21:09:39 untill I told him to increase the values for stepgen max_vel and max_accel 21:09:58 that headroom problem is gonna cause us no end of grief 21:09:58 seems increasing by a factor of 25.4 made a big difference 21:10:02 * rayh slinks off to work on hal_tree 21:10:03 ? 21:10:13 I think it's a problem of units here, not headroom 21:10:16 !?! 25.4 21:10:27 yeah 21:10:29 he said 10 times more is getting him less ferror 21:10:38 so I suggested 25.4 21:10:48 thats just fscked 21:10:53 I think stepgen is getting inch command from emc 21:10:58 can you get me a copy if his ini? 21:11:00 but is reading mm units from the ini 21:11:03 it's in SF 21:11:06 under the latest bug 21:11:18 * jmkasunich looks 21:13:43 he has 500 counts per mm? 21:14:05 and a speed of 4mm/sec 21:14:20 okalleo: you around? 21:14:33 seems away.. 21:16:03 lemme scope the output of the motion controller and see what is coming out 21:16:12 ok 21:16:22 * alex_joni is analysing the changes in emc1 21:16:27 reading cvs logs 21:17:21 sucks that BWidget tree will not allow the same node name in different nodes. 21:28:22 okalleo's ini file has some funny values in it 21:28:36 it sure has.. 21:28:45 trav max_vel is 8, but the axis are 4,4,4,5.4 21:29:08 traj accel is 40, axis are 2,2,1,3 21:29:09 shouldn't matter 21:29:16 not sure about accel 21:29:21 but vel shouldn't matter.. 21:30:47 on a 1mm jog, I see a max vel of 0.25mm in 200mS = 1.25mm/sec, well within limits 21:31:05 but the feedback is falling behind and then overshooting 21:31:28 hmm.. how so? 21:31:53 hmm, the command has an initial step of about 0.01mm 21:32:01 bet thats the backlash 21:32:19 btw, he reported the jog moving a bit further then coming back 21:32:28 yes, thats the overshoot 21:32:34 yeah, seen some backlash on axis X 21:32:41 he has huge following error limits, 10 mm min, 12mm max 21:33:03 so he has all kinds of ugly stuff going on long before he trips on an error 21:33:42 yes, he set them in order not to get ferrors 21:33:42 although that's not a wise plan 21:34:07 I find it very hard to put myself in other peoples shoes 21:34:21 you think backlash might be the problem of the ferrors? 21:34:26 when I see something funny, the first thing I do is haul out the scope and try to understand what it is 21:34:29 backlash combined with slow speeds & accels 21:34:37 yes 21:34:45 slow accels especially 21:34:57 2 mm/s^2 does seem incredibly slow 21:35:03 2mm/sec^2 is very slow 21:35:05 heh 21:35:19 like I said .. great minds think alike 21:35:20 :P 21:35:36 maybe he has a 50kG flywheel on his leadscrew, and a NEMA 17 stepper? 21:35:38 jmkasunich: we should get a decent mm ini in CVS 21:35:54 I think he has some very small steppers 21:36:57 ok, I'm gonna get rid of the backlash and see what difference that makes 21:37:03 [17:45] what steppers do you use? 21:37:03 [17:45] vexta 21:37:17 does that mean anything to you? 21:37:30 its a brand name 21:37:46 by itself doesn't mean much 21:37:53 probably.. 21:38:04 vexta does tend to make a lot of 5 phase steppers, which need special drivers 21:38:23 but they make regular ones too (I think), so name alone doesn't tell much 21:38:38 Hi Alex, 21:38:38 ich kann es mir nicht erkären: Irgend jemand muss dio_init() 21:38:38 auskommentiert haben. Unglaublich! Ich habe im cvs nachgesehen, ob Du es 21:38:38 warst. Anscheinend nicht. Ich glaube echt, ich werde unzurechnungsfähig. 21:38:38 Nun ja, jetzt funktioniert alles wieder, d.h. , nachdem ich noch mal 21:38:38 gebootet hatte, weil die stg-karte total durcheinander war. 21:38:40 Was bleibt ist der eine input, der immer flattert, aber das scheint ja nun 21:38:42 wirklich ein elektrisches Problem zu sein. 21:38:44 Die Referenzpunktfahrt funktioniert jetzt 1a. Auch, wenn man während der 21:38:46 phasen dauernd neue ref-befehle gibt. So was nennt man einen robusten 21:38:48 zustandsautomaten! 21:38:58 yay... 21:39:07 if you say so... ;-) 21:39:10 that's a letter from till in case you are wondering ;) 21:39:22 he's reporting homing works ok on a stg2 with emc2 21:39:28 cool 21:39:40 and he's appreciating your homing mechanism 21:39:51 the state machine actually 21:40:02 I'm glad he likes it 21:40:14 he's impressed that he can send multiple homing signals even when the state machine is advanced 21:40:24 and it doesn't crap out ;) 21:40:42 and I'm sooo GLAD it works on the STG2 ;) 21:40:47 ah, it's so nice to have scope come up with the right signals and everything... 21:40:52 I didn't even have one to test.. 21:41:02 did most by email with till 21:41:09 impressive 21:41:16 btw, he had some problems with 'realtime start/stop' 21:41:24 your favorite problem 21:41:25 :P 21:41:32 ? 21:41:35 if you remember :) 21:41:39 the symlink for ksched 21:41:44 oh 21:41:54 and you (me) thought it was fixed 21:42:16 I think we should change ksched with up 21:42:31 beause it's unlikely for people to run anything else 21:42:40 and the ones who do.. well they can change it 21:43:20 might not be a bad idea 21:43:25 wow 21:43:30 what? 21:43:36 backlash is gone, but I get massive overshoot from stepgen 21:43:48 granularity problem? 21:44:20 I'm doing a 1mm move, using 400mm/min max vel (I think) and 2mm/sec^2 accel 21:44:47 it lags behind by about 0.04mm during the accel phase (which never reaches full speed in this short move) 21:44:56 then it overshoots by nearly 0.3mm 21:45:31 then jogs back? 21:45:37 yes, then it recovers 21:45:49 I'm gonna try giving stepgen some accel headroom 21:48:18 heh, perfect tracking (at least at 200um per division) 21:49:12 * okalleo is back 21:49:25 following error of about 2 microns, if I set the stepgen accel to 2.2 instead of 2.0 21:49:56 so it needs to have more than emc 21:50:16 Howdy 21:50:27 yes 21:50:30 hi okalleo 21:50:51 Do You have a metric ini to share? 21:50:51 okalleo: jmkasunich is kind enough to look at the troubles you're having 21:51:16 Nice... I think already it getting better 21:51:20 okalleo: question: why are your accel rates so low? 21:51:27 2mm/sec^2 seems very low 21:51:39 thanks to all the hints I got from the channel 21:52:23 Yes I know all vallues are little higher now, and it seemes not to give any following errors 21:52:25 alex: I scoped the following error, and it never exceeds 2 microns during the entire move 21:52:36 jmkasunich: great.. 21:52:43 okalleo: what machine do you have? 21:53:03 500 steps / mm is awfully much (big precision..) 21:53:03 Due to no money it's a hack... 21:53:17 2um per step 21:53:26 and 2 mm / sec speeds is awfully slow 21:53:42 he has 4mm/sec 21:53:42 not realworld precition but without extra electronics 21:53:48 that is 2000 steps per second 21:53:57 yepp 21:54:07 what kind of motors and drives? 21:54:42 its 2 phase steppers with 10 microstep drivers 21:55:05 screw the 10 microsteps.. 21:55:25 go without .. they don't provide anything for you, except less speed I think.. 21:55:32 what drives? geckos, xylotex, etc? 21:55:38 not possible without building more electronics... 21:56:44 its protobyte2000 (more or less like gecko basic driver) 21:56:45 then forget it.. 21:56:45 alex: they are smoother, and might provide a higher top speed without stalling, IF the computer can deliver the step rate 21:56:48 but of course they require a higher step rate 21:57:14 okalleo: the gecko driver has a selector for steps I think.. 21:57:27 not the basic one.. 21:57:30 okalleo: you are running BASE_PERIOD at the stock 50uS, which means 20K interrupts per second 21:57:39 that means a maximum of 10K steps/second 21:57:52 with your motors and drives, that is 20mm/sec 21:58:14 I don't know if your motors will actually move the machine that fast, that depends on the size of the motors and the machine 21:58:16 ok... 21:58:25 hang on a minute 21:58:37 I think I dont need more 22:00:50 back (had to go stir dinner) 22:01:13 20mm/sec = 1.2 m/min, I guess that is pretty quick 22:01:21 (for a smallish machine) 22:01:39 yes 22:01:50 the accel should probably be much higher 22:02:05 Do you run emc2 with a metric ini? 22:02:11 I expect your motors could go from stopped to 20mm/sec in less than 1/2 second 22:02:19 right now I'm running it with your ini 22:02:35 (I ususlly use inches, I'm in the USA) 22:02:43 ok 22:03:50 I changed the ferror and min_ferror back to more normal values with success after raising acc and vel room in stpper core file 22:04:12 sorry, a small cooking crisis has just happened, and I need to run to the grocery store... back in about 20 mins 22:04:21 good, sounds like you are on the right path 22:05:06 okalleo: but you also need to set accel a bit higher in the ini 22:05:13 or the whole machine will run slow 22:05:16 I'm about to go to sleep, good luck with, Your domestic affairs :) 22:05:19 and it could run faster 22:05:22 night okalleo 22:05:40 ok... I'll try tomorrow... 22:06:00 Nigty. 22:06:08 okalleo has left #emc-devel 22:16:12 logger_devel has joined #emc-devel 22:16:12 topic is: "Welcome to the Enhanced Machine Control development place. | Regular Developers' meetings 24/7 !" 22:16:12 Users on #emc-devel: logger_devel alex_joni jmkasunich rayh SWPadnos_ cradek @ChanServ SWP_Away 22:23:31 aha. got just a bit of hal_tree working. 22:24:15 can build the tree and click on comp, pin, param, sig, funct, or thread nodes and display 22:24:30 the return from bin/halcmd using that node name. 22:25:21 back 22:27:45 jmkasunich: emc's internals are pretty screwed .. I'm afraid 22:28:09 I'm seriously wondering if we should add [AXIS]STEPGEN_MAXACCEL to the ini, and have core_stepper.hal get its accel from there 22:28:29 and but a big honking comment in the ini saying to set stepgen accel about 10% higher than the main accel 22:28:48 one question for you: what does [AXIS_1]MAX_VELOCITY refer to? 22:28:54 tricky question.. 22:29:07 max velocity for axis 1 22:29:19 axis 1 beeing? 22:29:29 think non-trivkins 22:29:36 joint 1 22:29:46 and the answer is... wrong 22:29:53 with non-trivkins, it is truly fscked 22:30:02 axis 1 is Y 22:30:03 I agree 22:30:20 as it is now, you need to calc your joint speed 22:30:30 run that through kins, and get the axis speed 22:30:33 and put that in the ini 22:30:40 if that is even POSSIBLE.. 22:30:53 I can surely think of some cases where it's not possible 22:31:07 its the same old thing.. in order to accommadate the 90% with normal machines, and not fsck with their heads, we gloss over or hide important issues - then when you do non-trivial kins it bites you in the ass 22:31:44 yeap.. just pointing it out, as cradek (and I) read some of the code the other day 22:32:35 ideally, the kins code not only transforms position from one coordnate system to another, it can also transform accel and velocity limits 22:32:52 (for that, you need to be able to take the deriviatives of the kines equations) 23:06:41 h iguys 23:06:47 no wait - try this: 23:06:48 howdy 23:06:49 hi guys 23:07:07