00:09:46 i'm thinking about buying a used electronic indicator setup 00:09:56 ebay always freaks me out a little 00:10:09 i should just do it and stop whining 00:23:48 Guest272 has joined #emc 00:23:58 join emc-devel 00:24:02 oops 00:24:31 Guest272 is now known as skunkworks_ 00:26:10 skunkworks_: emc2/share/axis/images/axis.ngc 00:27:27 easy enuf to make a new one with ttt 00:28:05 crap - thanks. I think I failed gnome file serching. 00:28:23 find ./ -name axis.ngc 00:29:10 actually locate works best for most things 00:29:45 you can even do regexp's and stuff 00:29:56 I was trying to use the file browser.. as I am a windows person :( 00:31:14 skunkworks has quit 00:31:57 skunkworks_ is now known as skunkworks 00:34:44 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKz81fY1OjY 00:36:46 skunkworks: cool! 00:37:05 :) 00:37:41 even though I've seen it 1000 times, it's fun to see the machine and the cone doing the same thing - your video shows that nicely 00:38:08 doesn't the comment right at the top say "not for milling"? 00:38:19 sheesh ,some people can't follow directions 00:39:03 yeah but it seems to be the first thing a lot of people cut 00:39:57 * skunkworks never notice the comment 00:40:04 noticed 00:41:17 the begining of the video chunks - oh well. people will probably think it is the machine doing it ;) 00:46:02 only for about one second here 00:46:17 right 00:47:06 my minidv worked pretty well - I think this is the first time I have used the firewire port to download the video 00:47:21 lewin1 has joined #emc 00:47:21 lewing has quit 01:05:27 EldonB46 has left #emc 01:25:22 JymmmEMC has quit 01:38:24 Realtime : http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/08/08/1810243 01:43:43 les_w has quit 01:49:25 fish has joined #emc 01:49:31 hello 01:49:41 Hi 01:49:54 hows everyone doing tonight 01:50:04 content 01:50:18 full of rage and bile 01:50:23 haha uh oh 01:50:35 he's always like that 01:50:44 his name gives it away 01:50:55 it's so true. 01:51:13 anyway, I have a question about linuxcnc 01:51:21 on the site, it talks about "path deviation limited to a specified tolerance" 01:51:26 anyone read this: http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/08/08/1810243 ? 01:51:28 does that have anything to do with backlash? 01:51:52 no, it doesnt have much to do with emc at all really 01:52:30 backlash is a separate setting. 01:52:41 ok, but there is a setting for backlash right? 01:52:44 yes 01:52:50 it's called "backlash" i believe 01:52:57 harty has left #emc 01:53:06 because I'm planning to go with ACME leadscrews instead of ballscrews 01:53:16 to save some money 01:53:31 and I'm concerned about backlash 01:53:41 you should make an anti-backlash nut 01:53:54 like a split nut design eh 01:54:07 adjustable 01:54:10 etc 01:54:14 backlash comp is a bad solution. Like fenn said - try to remove it. split nut - spring loaded nut.. 01:54:19 weights 01:54:42 what's the least backlash I can get with leadscrew? 01:54:42 doesn't work for large forces, though. 01:54:46 0 01:54:53 but it involves a tremendous amount of work 01:54:58 what's a realistic number? 01:55:02 4 thou? 01:55:08 couple thousandths 01:55:21 that's pretty good 01:55:23 if you keep a split nut adjusted, it will stay pretty low 01:55:38 here is an interesting design (the white ones) http://www.aanrip.nl/abacklash2.jpg 01:55:45 thanks 01:55:54 http://www.aanrip.nl/backlashmoer2.jpg 01:55:56 how does backlash comp work exactly? 01:56:09 it knows it needs to move the screw X amount before the axis will move 01:56:20 when you change direction it advances the screw that amount 01:56:45 however consider what happens if you're doing climb milling 01:57:15 bad things! 01:57:14 the cutting forces will take up the backlash, and then you advance the screw suddenly, making a very high chip load for a brief period 01:58:05 oh I see 01:58:38 but the cutting forces don't take up the backlash consistently? 01:58:54 in climb milling the forces reverse 01:59:05 instead of pushing the axis, the machine pulls it along 01:59:11 and the screw holds it back 01:59:24 well - maybe 01:59:45 I see 02:00:03 also you can do the same sort of thing in the z axis with spiral cutters 02:00:11 an 1/8" endmill isn't going to pull the table out of backlash 02:00:50 having more than 50% cutter engagement cancels the climb pull too 02:00:58 it can 02:00:59 thats not really climb milling though 02:01:04 except at breakout 02:01:15 sure it is 02:01:37 what if you're 80% cutter engagement? 99%? 100%? what's the cuttoff point? 02:02:13 direction of cut is by is the clip thicker or thinner at the end of the cut 02:02:19 this is all over my head 02:02:27 its irrelevant 02:02:37 isnt irc great? 02:02:39 does the sieg x3 actually weight 700 lbs? 02:02:45 Skullworks-PGAB: we're talking about the cases where backlash is a problem 02:02:59 climb milling always has the thinnist clip as cutting edge departs the work 02:03:13 yes 02:03:15 climb milling is just an example of the problem being detailed 02:03:52 fish i can imagine it weight 700 lbs 02:04:05 but x2 is only 160 lbs 02:04:13 from the pictures, it doesn't seem like the x3 is that much bigger 02:04:21 X3 wighes about 390 lbs 02:04:40 shipping wieght it under 450 02:05:36 ah 02:05:39 * skunkworks would love a x1/x2 for my office.. 02:06:01 well looks like I will be getting the x2 02:06:04 skunkworks: why not go for an x3? seems a more useful size 02:06:06 x3 is too big to fit in my apartment 02:06:12 I have stuff that big 02:06:19 or access to it anyways 02:06:29 ah but what if you don't! 02:06:31 Approximate shipping weight: 372 lbs. ( from the Grizzly web sight 02:06:47 it is big 02:07:00 then I would have a bridgeport sized mill in the garage :) 02:07:14 mine is all over the house 02:07:23 bridgeport sized stuff takes.. infrastructure 02:07:30 Roguish has joined #emc 02:07:31 infrastructure == garage 02:07:34 cant just put it in a car 02:07:42 rent a wrecker 02:07:47 get some tubes 02:07:49 and a toe jack 02:07:52 yeah yeah 02:07:56 done 02:08:17 I pulled the table and saddle 02:08:29 what for? 02:08:29 removed the head & motor 02:08:36 then the column 02:08:58 so I could move it myself and fit everything in my mustang 02:09:02 oh 02:09:19 do spider couplers give backlash? 02:09:25 I've had an X3 since january 02:09:25 yes 02:09:29 danielbr has quit 02:09:38 Skullworks-PGAB: how'd you fit the knee in? 02:09:38 well 02:09:39 most do 02:09:41 damn, everything gives backlash 02:09:46 yes. 02:10:03 X3 is a mini -bed mill - there is no knee 02:10:06 Twingy has joined #emc 02:10:07 I don't understand why people like to use lovejoy couplers. 02:10:07 no, not everything 02:10:19 membrane couplers don't, preloaded ballscrews dont 02:10:20 well the steppers aren't rotating that fast, anyone have experience with just a solid piece of coupler? 02:10:36 http://images.grizzly.com/grizzlycom/pics/jpeg500/g/g0463.jpg 02:11:12 Skullworks-PGAB: oh i thought you were talking about a bridgeport 02:11:22 sorry 02:11:27 Jymmm has joined #emc 02:11:40 hmm - I thought the x3 was bigger than that for some reason. 02:12:07 Jymmm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKz81fY1OjY 02:12:28 the HF clone is 12-7/8'' (X), 5-3/4'' (Y), 8-5/8'' (Z) 18" swing 02:12:38 no - If anything I'll pick up a Hurco KM3 with ballscrews ready to go - they show up cheap from time to time - and they usually have a 3hp motor 02:15:13 Almost every part of a BP weighs more than I want to lift alone... 02:15:40 we have two horizontals at work 02:15:49 i wouldn't want to try moving one of those alone 02:15:57 i'd probably be okay moving a bridgeport with two dudes 02:16:00 manual? 02:16:02 me being one of those two dudes 02:16:05 Skullworks-PGAB: yeah 02:16:15 they're the biggest machines in the shop, 50 hp 02:16:20 * skunkworks loves horizontal machining centers - love the chip removal. 02:16:23 well, except for the planers, which are 100 02:16:24 I used to run an old Cinci 02:16:32 but the planers aren't mills 02:16:41 nor do they turn on 02:17:01 they are neat machines! 02:17:16 we have some big cutters for them 02:17:20 nobody really uses them much 02:17:36 one of the cutters is 12" diameter, 7" wide 02:17:48 can someone explain to me how this thing works? 02:17:50 stagger tooth cutter thing 02:17:50 http://www.aanrip.nl/backlashmoer2.jpg 02:17:59 I see some O-rings... 02:18:08 the o-rings provide clamping force 02:18:14 on the threads in the nut 02:18:19 which takes the backlash out 02:18:20 and that reduces backlash? 02:18:30 yeah, mostly 02:18:37 doesnt seem like a lot of clamping force 02:18:47 it's not, but you're not really going to be hogging metal off 02:19:10 well what's hogging metal off 02:19:14 supposedly the o-ring can stretch after a while with that design 02:19:28 fish, 5 horsepower cuts 02:19:33 ok 02:19:35 i would say "hogging" starts 02:19:38 so for the x2, that would work? 02:19:42 yep 02:19:41 haha 02:19:45 ok 02:19:46 here is a design that doesnt have that problem, but its more complicated: http://www.dumpstercnc.com/leadnuts.html 02:19:48 seems like a simple solution 02:20:05 I like the dumpstercnc address 02:20:07 that appeals to me 02:20:10 ha 02:20:20 me too 02:20:30 good for engraving, PCB and light routing 02:21:34 I use those nuts and they work well 02:21:38 maddash has joined #emc 02:21:39 would doing PCBs and engraving work with a CNC converted X2, assuming your piece is small enough? 02:21:52 sure, they're both mills 02:21:59 you dont need very much rigidity for pcb's 02:22:04 the x3 is just bigger and beefier 02:22:05 ok just checking 02:22:23 any backlash will kill a pcb though 02:22:27 a mill is actually probably a bad choice because the spindle doesnt go fast enough 02:22:35 you can use weights for pcb drilling 02:22:38 and get very good positioning 02:22:44 weights? 02:22:46 yar 02:22:48 maddash has quit 02:22:49 will a few thou backlash really affect pcbs? 02:22:54 to hold it in place you mean? 02:22:56 that's a trick they used on jig borers 02:23:01 they attached a line and a pulley to the table 02:23:03 and hung weights on it 02:23:11 kept the table up against the leadscrew 02:23:15 cradek: you maxnc - you made some sort of spring loaded double nuts - right? 02:23:15 ah 02:23:20 todd_ has joined #emc 02:23:24 consider that it's common to want to cut traces .006-008 wide 02:23:30 skunkworks: yes I use those dumpstercnc nuts 02:23:34 oh? 02:23:36 ah 02:23:54 todd_ has quit 02:24:10 wow ok 02:24:19 teeny! 02:24:22 so if I wanted to do pcb work, definitely go with ballscrews? 02:24:37 that's not necessary, you just need a solution for backlash 02:24:39 definately use something that takes the backlash out of the leadscrew, or go to ballscrews 02:25:18 before I got those acme screws and dumpstercnc nuts, I used a spring between two nuts on triangular threads 02:25:20 are the solutions you guys provided me enough? 02:25:24 sure 02:25:26 roltek has joined #emc 02:25:39 any of those spring/o-ring thingies will work 02:25:47 skunkworks has quit 02:25:58 for pcbs? 02:26:02 sure 02:26:03 maddash has joined #emc 02:26:07 excellent 02:26:15 * maddash just cracked wep 02:26:19 i KNOW there are people using those who are doing really light stuff in aluminum 02:26:53 why not just use bigger springs for the dumpstercnc screws 02:26:59 more wear 02:27:00 and then use 400 oz in steppers 02:27:02 higher static friction 02:27:10 wear I can deal with 02:27:18 and you still get follow error 02:27:19 just replacing the parts every once in a while 02:27:19 I've cut Al with those 02:27:30 they're not as weak as you think 02:27:33 i wonder how much bandwidth #emc takes up 02:27:34 i bet there's a point where you get more "backlash" because of stiction/elasticity in the screws 02:27:37 I was planning on doing light cuts in steel 02:27:42 fenn: yes, follow error 02:27:49 that the machine can't see 02:28:08 it will show up in cuts 02:28:19 points on a circle 02:28:33 I see 02:28:34 or rounding in sharp corners 02:28:45 if the feed changes direction at a good clip 02:29:12 you can see it if you use a scale on the table instead of the leadscrew 02:29:19 for positioning 02:29:23 well thanks for the help guys 02:29:24 good night 02:29:27 cya! 02:29:47 fish has quit 02:30:35 i guess they really hate cleaning out t-slots: http://machineshop.olin.edu/equipment/media/original/bridgeport_mill.jpg 02:30:50 doubt it ever gets used tho 02:30:56 what's the point of the t-slot? 02:31:02 mounting 02:31:08 to collect swarf so it doesnt fall on the floor 02:31:14 mounting crap to the table. 02:31:18 like, vises. 02:31:32 thats silly, if they were serious they'd just put an array of tapped holes 02:31:40 judging from the corners of that room 02:31:44 that machine indeed does not get used 02:31:47 there's a plate covering the entire tray of that bridgeport 02:31:55 i vacuum after i use the crap at work, and there's still chips stuck in the corner 02:32:11 yeah, it keeps the chips out of the slots 02:32:15 fenn: I don't think an array of tapped holes could never be as good as t-slots 02:32:22 toastydeath: magnets. 02:32:32 aluminum isn't magnetic? 02:32:46 sucks to be you 02:32:53 flush it out with oil 02:33:01 maddash: why not? 02:33:02 or just keep it out of the slots in the first place. 02:33:21 fenn: tapped hole array don't allow arbitrary positioning 02:33:23 besides the fact that everything is designed for t-slot mounting 02:33:35 there is stuff with holes 02:33:48 usually measurement stuff 02:33:57 eh? 02:33:59 t-slots allow the most rigid setup possible 02:34:10 while tapped holes are fast to use 02:34:43 master rotary tables and angle masters use tapped holes 02:34:54 why? 02:34:54 some granite surface plates have a section of holes 02:35:00 why to which part 02:35:11 why do "master" rotary tables use tapped holes? 02:35:37 two reasons - one, it's faster and you don't need t-nuts 02:35:39 because you can use locating pins in a counterbored hole? 02:35:40 fenn - given a choice between slots and holes I'd take slots every time 02:35:51 they don't want anyone using any sort of indicator 02:36:00 to try and use the slots to indicate the table in 02:36:16 no center hole, no slots, just a bunch of tapped holes in a grid 02:36:19 slots: can position clamps anywhere, easy to clean 02:36:39 holes: limit where you can put clamps, get crap and chips in them and are a bitch to clean out 02:36:48 but they're fast! 02:36:57 not when they're dirty 02:37:01 true. 02:37:03 isn't that what I said before? 02:37:07 "arbitrary positioning" 02:37:12 yes, it is 02:37:14 do they make "rotate in" nuts like for 8020, but to use on machine tables? 02:37:21 rotate in? 02:37:27 yes 02:37:44 you tilt them about 60 degrees and it slides into the slot.. err 02:37:45 tee nuts that have the corners of the flange cut off, so you can drop em into the middle of a slot 02:37:49 * fenn finds a picture 02:37:51 oh 02:37:57 as you tighten them then turn into position to grip 02:37:58 that's kind of cool 02:38:00 once 3d-printing becomes practical, machining should be mostly obsolete 02:38:07 looool 02:38:08 sorry, guys. 02:38:23 perhaps, but i'm not going to hold my breath 02:38:25 i for one welcome our laser overlords 02:39:03 * fenn gives up on finding a picture 02:39:04 it would be interesting to see a laser printer beat a progressive die 02:39:12 or see it beat a multispindle screw machine 02:39:15 lol 02:39:26 well you just gotta parallelize 02:39:35 or make the dies for either 02:39:35 don't be silly 02:39:43 but i like being silly 02:39:45 (fenn) 02:40:03 have you ever seen progressive stamping? 02:40:11 i meant for lasers 02:40:16 pew pew pew 02:40:17 but laser is the wrong way to do it anyway 02:40:27 they dont make silicon chips with lasers 02:40:35 skunkworks has joined #emc 02:40:45 cynied 02:40:47 OR DO THEY 02:40:49 cynied gas 02:41:06 damn keyboard on this portable finally died 02:41:06 cyanide? 02:41:12 yeah 02:41:17 rofl 02:41:24 jymmm: did you see the video? 02:41:26 there's more ways to etch silicon than you can shake a stick at 02:41:25 I used to work at NSC 02:41:33 it will be interesting to see if 3d printing in metals ever makes stuff faster than traditional machining 02:41:35 skunkworks: yeah, cool 02:42:03 it certainly won't make stuff fast enough in plastics to beat mold injection 02:42:11 well it depends on the shape 02:42:26 holy crap: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_YnaHNcISw 02:42:40 hahah i saw that 02:42:46 i cringed 02:43:30 they are sitting IN the fscking press! 02:43:47 lets see what happens when the management decides to raise production rates 02:44:02 jeez 02:44:23 the back guy leans out from under it to get the next piece just as it comes down 02:44:30 the very fact that they can affort to have about 8 guys loading and unloading a single press boggles the mind 02:44:44 relatives of the owner 02:44:44 compared to the cost of that die 02:44:52 it's nothing 02:45:12 they still load dies like that by hand here, too 02:45:14 oh come on, it looks like a food pan or something 02:45:15 Gaqwd lets hope you never have to sneeze 02:45:22 fenn: 02:45:34 that's probably a half million to three quarter million dollar die 02:45:45 doesn't matter that it's dog pans 02:45:51 the size of it is what determines the cost 02:45:57 toastydeath: they only load by hand for fairly short runs 02:46:07 if it was volume they'd have some kind of automation 02:46:11 not necessarily, man 02:46:20 dmessier has quit 02:47:04 the cost of manpower to run the die is small compared to maitnence, and is completely puny compared to the profit generated by it 02:47:09 even loaded by hand, every part 02:47:30 high speed presses are autofed, sure 02:47:42 but slow ones like that, it still makes sense to load them by hand 02:47:48 hmm - looks like $17 + $20 shipping will get me a keyboard on ebay ;) 02:47:52 like I said, it depends on the run size 02:48:01 even for a million parts, dude 02:49:48 I find it hard to believe an american company would do a run of a million of anything with manual loading 02:50:45 some places just don't use automation. 02:51:11 i've got aquaintences who just retired from the die industry, working on large production dies 02:51:13 continual jobs 02:51:18 places that make a million of something do, or they see the job go to china, or a competitor that does 02:51:51 and again, that's a generalization 02:52:01 automation is the darling of trade magazines 02:52:07