00:00:06 <Skullworks-PGAB> were almost the same
00:00:19 <toastydeath> that's something china will always win for the forseeable future
00:00:48 <toastydeath> but even china has to import dies if they are of sufficient complexity
00:00:59 <toastydeath> and that seems to be working out very well for them
00:01:12 <toastydeath> rather than worrying about training someone to build and work on the die in house
00:01:50 <toastydeath> medical components, aerospace, scientific instrumentation
00:01:52 <toastydeath> that kind of work
00:02:14 <toastydeath> but i could eat my words in ten years, i guess
00:02:56 <Skullworks-PGAB> china is allready becoming a player in the satilite booster service
00:03:18 <Skullworks-PGAB> russia is still king for heavy loads
00:04:24 <SWPadnos> you need to hope that fuel prices stay high or increase - low shipping costs make China manufacturing economical
00:04:27 <Skullworks-PGAB> they built huge launch vehicles - those Czar's were not small
00:04:48 <toastydeath> china's econonmy makes chineese manufacturing economical
00:05:07 <SWPadnos> but getting the stuff here cheaply makes it competitive
00:05:10 <Skullworks-PGAB> that too - China now has the largest merchant marine fleet
00:05:28 <SWPadnos> just like 1500-500 years ago :)
00:05:39 <toastydeath> we've completely legislated our manufacturing ability out of the water
00:05:49 <Skullworks-PGAB> Scurge of the RED Dragon
00:05:55 <toastydeath> i'd blame us more than china
00:06:13 <toastydeath> china is sitting over there, being china
00:06:16 <Skullworks-PGAB> we did mess things up
00:06:18 <toastydeath> we're over here, suing people over spilling coffee
00:06:41 <Skullworks-PGAB> EPA - OSHA - Unions - Colleges
00:06:43 <toastydeath> indeed
00:06:43 <SWPadnos> I don't think it's regulations that screw us.  think about it - if your company makes widgets, then the salary paid to all the employees can't be enough to buy all the widgets the company makes, or the company would have no profit
00:07:06 <toastydeath> regulations that do not take into consideration basic principles of economics do screw us
00:07:30 <SWPadnos> bullshit.  would you work for $5 an hour?
00:07:30 <Skullworks-PGAB> OK case in point - Outsourcing for profit
00:07:31 <toastydeath> not every regulation, like ones that allow me to keep my fingers
00:07:41 <toastydeath> SWPadnos: uh, i don't make minimum wage
00:07:50 <a-l-p-h-a> SWPadnos, as a male heterosexual porn star. sure.
00:07:54 <toastydeath> so minimum wage doesn't affect me
00:07:58 <SWPadnos> I assume you make more than minimum wage ...
00:07:58 <a-l-p-h-a> SWPadnos, but part time only...
00:08:14 <toastydeath> and uh, if the choices are "make 5 dollars an hour" versus "don't work at all"
00:08:18 <toastydeath> i'm going to take the 5 dollars an hour
00:08:29 <toastydeath> because if the employer HAS to pay me 5, and i'm only worth four
00:08:33 <Skullworks-PGAB> I just saw the Simpson's  movie last weekend - most of the anamation was outsourced to Korea
00:08:35 <toastydeath> they're going to buy a robot to do my job
00:08:38 <SWPadnos> sure - if you're forced to do so by extreme outside forces (like, no income and a mortgage)
00:09:01 <toastydeath> uh, if you are only worth 5 dollars an hour
00:09:05 <toastydeath> as an employee
00:09:12 <toastydeath> what are you going to do?
00:09:21 <toastydeath> you don't have skills that are worth more than that, economically
00:09:56 <a-l-p-h-a> Skullworks-PGAB, it's been like that for eons
00:10:00 <SWPadnos> no - my point is that the workforce in the US/Canada has to take some responsibility for the problem.  if you were willing to weork for less, and pay more for stuff, then the trade deficit with China would be nowhere near as bad
00:10:07 <toastydeath> ah
00:10:31 <SWPadnos> I just don't think it's fair to say that legislation is "the problem" - it's much more complex than that
00:10:32 <toastydeath> i agree, to a certain extent
00:10:44 <toastydeath> i didn't mean to place sole blame on legislation
00:10:45 <a-l-p-h-a> SWPadnos, it's not so much the cost of employees, but the benefits and pensions... that's what killing GM.
00:11:08 <SWPadnos> I have friends / family that complain about china all the time, then go buy the cheapest thing they can get at Wal-Mart or Fleet Farm or wherever
00:11:17 <SWPadnos> they just don't see the correlation
00:11:22 <Skullworks-PGAB> Well with the China government cutting back on all subsidies as of July 1st it will cause a price increase surge
00:11:49 <SWPadnos> I'm sure the governments on both sides of the Pacific are partly to blame
00:11:49 <a-l-p-h-a> SWPadnos, hahahaha... I love those hypocrits. :)
00:11:59 <SWPadnos> yeah - and they don't even need the shit they buy
00:12:13 <Skullworks-PGAB> I've allready seen 25% price increases on small machine tools
00:12:51 <SWPadnos> many people in north america just don't understand how good we've got it
00:13:05 <Skullworks-PGAB> yup
00:13:10 <SWPadnos> in the UK and europe, gasoline has been around $4-$6/gallon for several years
00:13:45 <Skullworks-PGAB> entitlement minded - the world owes you a comfortable living...
00:13:56 <SWPadnos> if that happened here, people would be crying to the government to save us from the evil oil companies, so we could still drive our SUVs, pickups, and jet-skis
00:14:00 <SWPadnos> right
00:14:16 <a-l-p-h-a> I just had this conversation today with my boss this morning.
00:14:36 <a-l-p-h-a> we have all our needs fullfilled... it's just our wants that are our concerns.
00:14:39 <SWPadnos> it's always an interesting conversation ;)
00:14:52 <a-l-p-h-a> we have money to buy food, shelter... but it's our wants now
00:15:11 <a-l-p-h-a> like how big a TV, what car to choose next, movie tickets, etc etc...
00:15:15 <toastydeath> and i would argue some people don't have their needs covered but still go for wants
00:15:22 <a-l-p-h-a> not how do I feed my kids today...
00:15:26 <SWPadnos> yeah - better buy that plasma screen before the shipping costs go up!
00:15:35 <toastydeath> i better buy that hand scraper i was looking at
00:15:37 <SWPadnos> heh - that's true too :)
00:15:38 <toastydeath> before prices go up =(
00:15:41 <SWPadnos> heh
00:15:42 <a-l-p-h-a> SWPadnos, you could go to BB and buy it there haha.
00:15:49 <a-l-p-h-a> BB = best buy
00:15:54 <Skullworks-PGAB> hmmm - I'm still working on needs...
00:16:09 <SWPadnos> I need that plasma screen!
00:16:10 <Skullworks-PGAB> * Skullworks-PGAB needs a new roof, this one leaks
00:16:12 <a-l-p-h-a> Skullworks-PGAB, you have internet, you're needs are fullfilled.
00:16:18 <toastydeath> hahaha
00:16:30 <SWPadnos> my rear projector isn't 1920P you know
00:16:37 <SWPadnos> how can I survive?
00:16:45 <a-l-p-h-a> I need a Q6600, MSI P35 Platinium, 2gigs ram, and a nV8800...
00:16:53 <a-l-p-h-a> 1920P?
00:17:02 <SWPadnos> err - 1080P
00:17:09 <Skullworks-PGAB> I live off friends trash...
00:17:08 <SWPadnos> no - I need 2160P
00:17:21 <Skullworks-PGAB> my PC's are all cast offs
00:17:27 <SWPadnos> Quad HD - that's what I must have, before prices go up!
00:17:35 <a-l-p-h-a> oh! have you guys seen the car I want to buy... Nissan Altima Coupe!!!
00:17:46 <SWPadnos> pshaw - you need a maximog!
00:17:51 <a-l-p-h-a> http://www.nissanusa.com/altimacoupe/index.html
00:17:56 <Skullworks-PGAB> my car is 17 years old...
00:18:02 <SWPadnos> http://www.maximog.com/
00:18:05 <a-l-p-h-a> http://www.nissanusa.com/altimacoupe/index.html <- hawt... baby G35
00:18:35 <a-l-p-h-a> SWPadnos, what's your postal code? I'm ognna price one out
00:18:38 <Skullworks-PGAB> ditched the cell phone and laugh my ass off at people raving about the iPhone
00:18:40 <SWPadnos> 05452
00:19:00 <Skullworks-PGAB> far east coast?
00:19:40 <SWPadnos> Vermont
00:19:49 <a-l-p-h-a> shit, it's way cheaper in the states!
00:19:52 <Skullworks-PGAB> nice
00:19:52 <a-l-p-h-a> W T F.
00:20:08 <SWPadnos> $1 = $0.80
00:20:11 <a-l-p-h-a> it's $34.5K + 14%....
00:20:16 <Skullworks-PGAB> figure exchange rates
00:20:27 <a-l-p-h-a> SWPadnos, shut up... it's like $1CDN = $0.94USD
00:20:31 <Skullworks-PGAB> also might be assembled in a local plant
00:20:37 <SWPadnos> wow!  the USD is damn low - $0.95/$1CAD
00:20:49 <a-l-p-h-a> http://www.xe.com/
00:20:52 <SWPadnos> man  -London is going to suck next week :(
00:21:04 <Skullworks-PGAB> more rain forcast?
00:21:18 <SWPadnos> no - $2.04 exchange rate
00:21:18 <a-l-p-h-a> 1USD = 0.49#
00:21:38 <a-l-p-h-a> Skullworks-PGAB, you're very QUICK. :)
00:21:55 <Skullworks-PGAB> or the fact your dollars feel real light compaired to the UK pund
00:22:04 <SWPadnos> only 20% chance of rain showing at the moment, for Monday-Wednesday
00:22:11 <a-l-p-h-a> Skullworks-PGAB, you're even QUICKer than I thought. :)
00:22:30 <SWPadnos> oooh - I wonder if I got my upgrade
00:22:37 <Skullworks-PGAB> only when grabbing the last slice o pizza
00:22:41 <a-l-p-h-a> SWPadnos, is that upgrade like tampex?
00:22:52 <SWPadnos> err - no, I don't think so
00:23:03 <a-l-p-h-a> SWPadnos, seen those femail hygene product commercials?
00:23:13 <a-l-p-h-a> female
00:23:16 <SWPadnos> I don't watch much TV these days
00:23:26 <SWPadnos> I know what Tampax are though, of course
00:23:25 <a-l-p-h-a> you're not missing much
00:23:35 <SWPadnos> that's why I don't bother
00:23:51 <a-l-p-h-a> $28.7KUSD < $34.5KCDN
00:24:11 <a-l-p-h-a> that is freak'n $4K less than here!
00:24:21 <SWPadnos> don't forget this Maximog accessory:  http://www.maximog.com/jetboat.html
00:24:25 <a-l-p-h-a> that's not fair... $4KCDN difference!!!!
00:24:30 <SWPadnos> well, drive over to Buffalo and get one
00:24:39 <a-l-p-h-a> I don't boat.
00:24:50 <SWPadnos> no, an Altima
00:25:00 <SWPadnos> another accessory: http://www.maximog.com/bike.html
00:25:04 <a-l-p-h-a> I wonder what the paper work would be...
00:25:11 <Skullworks-PGAB> hey at one point it was 2$CDN to 1$ US - back when my cousin was getting child support from her Canadian Exhusband
00:25:19 <SWPadnos> you'd probably have to pay the $4k in tax :)
00:25:30 <a-l-p-h-a> SWPadnos, I wouldn't doubt that at all!
00:25:36 <Skullworks-PGAB> It was bleeding him - or so he claimed
00:25:50 <a-l-p-h-a> Skullworks-PGAB, I can believe that
00:25:57 <SWPadnos> and you can't forget the coolest accessory for the MaxiMog:  http://www.maximog.com/uav.html
00:26:03 <a-l-p-h-a> I was selling stuff from Canada to the US at that rate... I loved it.
00:26:20 <Skullworks-PGAB> sweet
00:26:35 <a-l-p-h-a> $0.50 in materials... + $2.00 in shipping materials.  sold for $25USD...
00:26:44 <a-l-p-h-a> sold for a few hundred times...
00:26:46 <a-l-p-h-a> I loved it
00:27:07 <Skullworks-PGAB> I bought the Solarbotics H-bridge kit direct from the Canada builder
00:27:16 <a-l-p-h-a> ~12500 CDN...
00:27:50 <Skullworks-PGAB> I should wire that up to the pluto and do a wiki writeup
00:29:45 <Skullworks-PGAB> bbl - have to go move laundry
00:55:36 <toastydeath> pew pew pew
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01:50:51 <toastydeath> ararar
01:50:59 <toastydeath> i am so annoyed i cannot find a universal measuring machine
01:51:05 <toastydeath> i have now gone so far into obscure machines
01:51:12 <toastydeath> that not even ebay has them
01:51:38 <toastydeath> rotary head mills, universal measring machines, surface interferometers
01:51:47 <toastydeath> WHEN WILL IT END
01:51:49 <toastydeath> i need to stop reading
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02:57:25 <ds2> forget the machines... build something!
02:57:58 <a-l-p-h-a> but the robots are my friends.
02:59:25 <Skullworks-PGAB> robots help make scrap parts, only faster
02:59:42 <ds2> let the machines rise
03:00:35 <a-l-p-h-a> anyone see "Sarah Connor Chronicles"?
03:00:56 <Skullworks-PGAB> not me
03:01:21 <a-l-p-h-a> you should, it's a new show... based on Terminator
03:05:02 <ds2> isn't it slated for this fall?
03:05:29 <a-l-p-h-a> I got the preair
03:05:31 <a-l-p-h-a> it's wicked.
03:05:33 <a-l-p-h-a> it's good.
03:06:22 <a-l-p-h-a> Summer Glau is in it... she's hot in a weird way... I don't know why
03:06:38 <a-l-p-h-a> nm. http://imdb.com/gallery/granitz/6297/Events/6297/ActressSu_Leste_14560961_400.jpg.html?path=pgallery&path_key=Glau,%20Summer she's hot...
03:06:46 <a-l-p-h-a> just when she has straight hair, she's kinda plain
03:07:23 <SWPadnos> many people who are "hot" are kinda plain when they're not made up and lit well
03:07:50 <a-l-p-h-a> true
03:08:03 <a-l-p-h-a> I must just have good lighting around me all the time. :)
03:08:10 <a-l-p-h-a> HAHA...
03:08:12 <a-l-p-h-a> ahh...
03:08:17 <a-l-p-h-a> I'm going to cry in the corner now.
03:08:30 <SWPadnos> heh
03:08:31 <a-l-p-h-a> lol
03:08:32 <a-l-p-h-a> :)
03:08:50 <SWPadnos> it's the makeup, silly
03:08:56 <SWPadnos> retouching helps too
03:08:57 <jmkasunich> http://imdb.com/gallery/ss/0379786/00039RV2.jpg.html?path=pgallery&path_key=Glau%2C%20Summer&seq=2
03:09:14 <SWPadnos> she was River in Serenity - nice role there
03:09:17 <a-l-p-h-a> see what I mean by weird. http://imdb.com/gallery/ss/0303461/Ss/0303461/5869100_2_5.jpg.html?hint=nm1132359
03:09:21 <a-l-p-h-a> yes.
03:09:33 <a-l-p-h-a> she's got a big forehead.
03:10:08 <SWPadnos> I guess she's getting male pattern baldness
03:10:25 <a-l-p-h-a> maybe...
03:11:12 <Skullworks-PGAB> hmm River doing the clobber everyone in site dance...
03:11:26 <SWPadnos> yeah - that was a fun scene
03:11:27 <SWPadnos> or two :)
03:11:37 <SWPadnos> or 6
03:12:17 <Skullworks-PGAB> not bad for a little (thin) girl from Texas.
03:13:06 <jmkasunich> I thought the thin girl from TX was named Fred
03:13:12 <Skullworks-PGAB> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWaKcvuh1os
03:13:19 <SWPadnos> argh.  browsing is so darned slow when I have the Xilinx tools downloading on another machine
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14:55:44 <awallin> hi all, what's up?
14:58:20 <skunkworks> I don't think anyone is awake yet.. I am not..
14:59:38 <awallin> ah, ok.
15:08:01 <Skullworks-PGA1> Skullworks-PGA1 has joined #emc
15:08:08 <Skullworks-PGA1> * Skullworks-PGA1 is sipping coffee with one eye open.
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15:16:57 <SWPadnos> mmmmm - coffee
15:17:19 <jlmjvm> jepler:I have an axis question
15:18:14 <Skullworks-PGA1> Skullworks-PGA1 is now known as Skullworks-PGAB
15:18:30 <jlmjvm> SWPadnos:good morning
15:18:41 <SWPadnos> morning
15:19:09 <jlmjvm> didnt you tell me your an electrical engineer
15:19:31 <SWPadnos> I may have
15:19:36 <SWPadnos> (and I am :) )
15:20:04 <jlmjvm> k,thought i remembered,was awhile back
15:20:37 <SWPadnos> ok.  I don't remember telling you, but that may be -ENOCAFFEINE talking
15:20:43 <jlmjvm> i got some pacsi steppers off ebay,and am having a little trouble
15:20:47 <SWPadnos> not that I keep it a secret or anything
15:20:54 <SWPadnos> what drives?
15:21:01 <jlmjvm> g203v
15:21:06 <jlmjvm> gecko
15:21:06 <SWPadnos> nice
15:21:12 <SWPadnos> what troubles?  :)
15:22:29 <jlmjvm> i can bench the motor at full rpm and acccel,but when i attach the belt I can only get about 30 to 40 percent,with a slow accel
15:22:56 <jlmjvm> and if you try to increase it the drive will fault
15:23:01 <SWPadnos> attach belt and pulley only, or attach belt+machine axis?
15:23:17 <jlmjvm> attach to machine
15:24:05 <SWPadnos> ok - that makes sense then.  I take it that the motor stalls when you get to some speed, and that's how you tell that it isn't working?
15:24:37 <jlmjvm> no,doesnt stall,just faults
15:24:57 <SWPadnos> ok - the drive faults out - close enough
15:25:17 <jlmjvm> i can make my old bridgeport steppers stall,but it doesnt fault the drive
15:25:43 <SWPadnos> when you connect the motor to the machine, you increase the inertial load.  that reduces the accel because the same torque is now accelerating more mass
15:26:46 <SWPadnos> also, since stepper motor torque goes down as speed increases, and you've increased the load (friction and inertia), the top speed will be reduced, since at some point, the available torque will no longer be enough to overcome losses (and accelerate further)
15:27:16 <jlmjvm> i agree,but Mariss says the drive should not fault,the motor should stall
15:27:19 <SWPadnos> I don't know if the 30-40% number makes sense
15:27:19 <SWPadnos> indeed
15:27:46 <jlmjvm> i do know that it is a special winding
15:28:05 <jlmjvm> i have the specs if that will tell you anything
15:29:15 <SWPadnos> do you have the REV5 G203V (one with the yellow full power LED)?
15:29:22 <jlmjvm> i think they are just too little for this size machine
15:29:24 <jlmjvm> yes
15:29:56 <SWPadnos> does that LED light before the drive faults?
15:30:00 <jlmjvm> and the yellow light never comes on
15:30:03 <SWPadnos> ok
15:30:36 <SWPadnos> does it when the motor is unconnected?
15:30:57 <SWPadnos> ^light
15:30:57 <jlmjvm> let me rephrase,have never watched for the yellow light when its set fast enough to fault
15:31:42 <SWPadnos> ok
15:32:01 <jlmjvm> i can check that
15:32:23 <SWPadnos> well, the only motor-related things I see that should light the red LED are (a) a shorted winding and (b) overtemp
15:33:51 <fenn> could try adding inertia and friction to the motor while on the test bench
15:33:58 <jlmjvm> what if the power supply was dropping off,could that do it
15:34:12 <fenn> yep
15:34:38 <jlmjvm> really
15:34:52 <SWPadnos> I guess so - that LED goes on for 1 seconds after reset
15:35:46 <SWPadnos> but I'd think it would have to droop a lot to make that happen - the minimum input voltage is 18V or thereabouts, which is pretty low for running any motor
15:36:50 <jlmjvm> my power supply runs the big bridgeport steppers good,but not this little motor
15:36:58 <jlmjvm> heres the specs
15:37:27 <jlmjvm> powerpac 1.8 step motor
15:37:55 <jlmjvm> model k31ssfsw-lek-ss-02
15:38:08 <jlmjvm> 5.5a bipolar series
15:38:17 <jlmjvm> 35v
15:38:19 <SWPadnos> 35V?
15:38:30 <jlmjvm> po 119w 1500 rpm
15:38:47 <jlmjvm> yes 35v
15:38:59 <Skullworks-PGAB> thats a killer
15:39:06 <SWPadnos> I don't know how PacSci rates their motor voltage, but if they do it like everyone else, then that's about 10x as high as it should be
15:40:04 <jlmjvm> whats a killer?
15:40:14 <SWPadnos> the voltage
15:40:25 <Skullworks-PGAB> a higher voltage motor
15:40:41 <jlmjvm> do i need higher?
15:40:57 <SWPadnos> no no - lower
15:41:02 <SWPadnos> unless they rate them differently
15:41:06 <jlmjvm> k
15:41:22 <Skullworks-PGAB> you need a low voltagemotor and a high voltage 72VDC supply for the geckos
15:41:48 <jlmjvm> i think they do,cause the regular pacsi motors are 65 v
15:42:35 <SWPadnos> there are steppers that have high voltage like that - Oriental Motor made some that were AC motors or steppers - 72 RPM from 120AC/60Hz
15:42:58 <SWPadnos> do you have the torque rating?
15:43:50 <jlmjvm> supposed to be bout 850 oz in for the single stack nema 34
15:44:26 <jlmjvm> from what i read on their web site
15:46:23 <Skullworks-PGAB> Ideal stepper is low voltage - like 3V and low inductance like 2mH - then a good chooper/PWM drive shoots in 10x-20x voltage to get the coils to saturation, then cuts power (to stop overheat, magnet damage etc)
15:46:48 <SWPadnos> I'm looking at a related spec sheet, and it shows the resistance as 0.42 ohms, which would be 2.3V, which is OK
15:46:50 <Skullworks-PGAB> Did I get that right, not sure coffee has kicked in yet.
15:47:50 <SWPadnos> Skullworks-PGAB, good enough approximation :)
15:50:37 <jlmjvm> i may be wrong but i think they are too small for a full size bridgeport with 1 to 1 gearing
15:50:56 <SWPadnos> probably
15:51:07 <jlmjvm> single stack nema 34 with a 4 inch pulley attached
15:51:09 <SWPadnos> 850 oz-in would be plenty for a servo, but not for a stepper
15:52:05 <SWPadnos> what supply voltage do you have?
15:52:22 <Skullworks-PGAB> I think 850 oz-in servo would still need a 2:1 or better reduction
15:52:36 <jlmjvm> bout 34 volts
15:52:45 <SWPadnos> eek - that's way too low
15:53:01 <jlmjvm> i can change it to 70v
15:53:13 <Skullworks-PGAB> much better
15:53:16 <SWPadnos> higher voltage basically moves the knee of the torque curve toward higher speeds
15:53:50 <Skullworks-PGAB> and you won't loose any stationary holding torque
15:54:13 <SWPadnos> I would do that, but only once you check the voltage specs.  35V is very low for an insulation breakdown, but I'd want to be sure
15:54:32 <SWPadnos> you will get more heating (but maybe not with the 203V) when holding
15:55:42 <jlmjvm> it still does the same at higher voltage
15:55:45 <Skullworks-PGAB> Thats one of geckos best features - able to run over 50V - which yields speeds other drivers only wish they could put out.
15:56:01 <SWPadnos> is the speed any higher?
15:56:06 <jlmjvm> nope
15:56:29 <SWPadnos> hmmm.  have you tried swapping motors/geckos around?
15:56:33 <Skullworks-PGAB> do you have the proper resistor in place?
15:56:51 <SWPadnos> yah - current limit could be an issue
15:57:12 <SWPadnos> jlmjvm, about how fast can you get it going on the machine?
15:57:19 <SWPadnos> (RPM)
15:57:38 <jlmjvm> have the 270 resistor in,for 6 amp
15:59:00 <SWPadnos> 270k?
16:02:03 <jlmjvm> 270k
16:02:32 <jlmjvm> can get bout 600 rpm on machine,but with very low accel
16:03:09 <jlmjvm> runs bout 300 rpm with normal accel
16:03:46 <SWPadnos> http://www.novotecargentina.com/descargar.php?id=156
16:03:49 <jlmjvm> which is 60 ipm on this machine
16:04:10 <SWPadnos> look on page 8 of the PDF - the first torque graph
16:04:44 <jlmjvm> k
16:05:26 <SWPadnos> I don't know how the "special" windings may differ, but that gives an inkling of how these motors may perform
16:05:47 <jlmjvm> so im getting bout all its gonna do
16:06:01 <SWPadnos> I don't remember what it is, but there's a recommendation regarding series vs. parallel connection as well
16:06:02 <jlmjvm> if im reading th graph right
16:06:31 <SWPadnos> I suspect that you want parallel, since you want high torque (it seems to me that parallel should deliver higher torque)
16:06:37 <jlmjvm> i do know this motor will only work with all 8 wires,cant use just 4
16:06:53 <SWPadnos> right - you need to use all 8, but it's a matter of how :)
16:07:27 <jlmjvm> thought there was only one way to wire it
16:07:37 <jlmjvm> with all 8
16:07:38 <SWPadnos> nope - not for a standard 8-wire motor
16:07:43 <Skullworks-PGAB> no - serial and parallel
16:08:10 <SWPadnos> ah - the step motor basics PDF tells about that - page 5
16:08:12 <SWPadnos> http://www.geckodrive.com/photos/Step_motor_basics.pdf
16:08:24 <SWPadnos> yes - higher power and speed with parallel winding
16:08:34 <SWPadnos> err - higher power and corner speed ...
16:08:37 <jlmjvm> it can be serial or parallel with all 8 wires?
16:08:41 <SWPadnos> yes
16:08:53 <jlmjvm> did not know that
16:08:55 <Skullworks-PGAB> parallel requires more curent, but has lower inductance and hence a higher top speed attainable
16:09:12 <SWPadnos> you have A and A' coils.  you can take those 4 wires and connect them in series by connecting two together, and the other two to the gecko
16:10:03 <SWPadnos> you can connect them in parallel by connecting pairs of leads together (one from A and one from A' shorted together, then the other two shorted together), then connect each shorted pair to the gecko
16:10:12 <jlmjvm> i can tell ya how my wires are
16:10:41 <SWPadnos> you must be very careful doing this - if you wire the two halves backwards, you have a very large problem (it acts like a dead short)
16:10:54 <SWPadnos> the G203V may just fault and refuse to run though - I'm not sure
16:11:03 <jlmjvm> it should
16:11:23 <SWPadnos> I agree, but I disclaim any responsibility for smoke released into the wild ;)
16:11:59 <jlmjvm> yellow+white with red trace
16:12:06 <jlmjvm> white+red
16:12:33 <jlmjvm> black+white with orange trace
16:12:59 <jlmjvm> orange+white with black trace
16:13:37 <jlmjvm> if it smokes will get a new 1,its all in the name of science
16:13:57 <SWPadnos> heh
16:14:25 <SWPadnos> it looks like page 21 of that spec sheet I linked has connection info
16:14:33 <SWPadnos> I don't know if it's correct for your motor though
16:16:41 <jlmjvm> thats what i have
16:16:49 <SWPadnos> ok - the parallel connection?
16:17:10 <jlmjvm> thats actually where i got the info to wire these
16:17:12 <jlmjvm> yep
16:17:14 <SWPadnos> heh
16:18:13 <jlmjvm> ?
16:18:25 <SWPadnos> it is possible, though it seems far-fetched, that there's an insulation problem in the motor that shows itself when the motor gets warm.  spinning at no load shouldn't heat the motor as much as spinning at low speed under load
16:18:41 <SWPadnos> so as it heats up, the short happens, and the drive faults
16:18:57 <jlmjvm> it can do it cold
16:19:06 <SWPadnos> well, I did say that it's far-fetched :)
16:20:51 <jlmjvm> think i may ned to get some different motors,they work good at low speed,really smooth
16:20:53 <SWPadnos> damn.  the laptop crashed sometime during / after the Xilinx tools install 
16:21:08 <SWPadnos> but I can't tell which, because the screen was blanked
16:21:14 <jlmjvm> just dont have the power to move faster
16:21:39 <SWPadnos> I'm surprised that the speed didn't change when you changed the power supply voltage to 70V
16:21:50 <SWPadnos> that makes me think that there may be something weird going on
16:21:57 <jlmjvm> me too
16:22:17 <SWPadnos> other than that, I think you're getting about the right performance for running those motors at 34V
16:22:36 <SWPadnos> how fast can you get them unloaded?
16:23:13 <jlmjvm> 1250 rpm ,which is my max pulse rate
16:23:19 <SWPadnos> ok
16:23:27 <jlmjvm> which would be 250 ipm
16:24:04 <SWPadnos> way too fast for a BP :)
16:24:19 <jlmjvm> dont want to run that fast on my mill,would settle for 150 ipm,0r 750 rpm loade
16:24:23 <jlmjvm> loaded
16:24:38 <SWPadnos> I've got to run for a bit.  hopefully someone with more motor knowledge will turn up at some point
16:24:54 <SWPadnos> if you haven't already, you may want to post a question to the geckodrive Yahoo group
16:25:00 <jlmjvm> thanks for your help,really appreciate it
16:25:10 <SWPadnos> you're welcome
16:25:42 <jlmjvm> talked with mariss already,says its a mystery motor,may send him 1 to play with
16:25:55 <SWPadnos> heh - that should solve the problem quite handily
16:26:20 <jlmjvm> thanks again SW
16:26:44 <jlmjvm> gotta run also
16:26:48 <Skullworks-PGAB> 250IPM is perfect for a BP
16:27:16 <SWPadnos> true - this was a CNC before - I'm thinking ofmanual retrofits
16:27:46 <jlmjvm> 250 would be sweet
16:28:24 <jlmjvm> i did a retrofit on a hurco mill with g320 and am getting 250
16:28:28 <Skullworks-PGAB> is your BP Z axis quil or knee?
16:28:33 <jlmjvm> quill
16:28:52 <Skullworks-PGAB> great it can take that speed just fine
16:28:58 <jlmjvm> and its finger tip smooth
16:29:21 <Skullworks-PGAB> I used to Run a Hurco KM3 knee mill - it had 250 rapids
16:29:43 <Skullworks-PGAB> I alsways wanted to up it to 400 :)
16:29:58 <jlmjvm> this is the full size hurco with tool changer
16:30:15 <Skullworks-PGAB> BMC20 or 30?
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16:30:49 <jlmjvm> seems like it was a kmb
16:30:56 <Skullworks-PGAB> ok
16:31:02 <jlmjvm> will check,will be there in a bit
16:31:17 <Skullworks-PGAB> like a 3200 or 3600 rpm spindle?
16:31:37 <Skullworks-PGAB> single screen control
16:31:41 <jlmjvm> 5400 spindle,huge motor
16:31:53 <jlmjvm> was a dual screen
16:31:57 <Skullworks-PGAB> hmm - have not seen that one
16:32:24 <jlmjvm> now a single flat screen
16:32:59 <jlmjvm> gotta run for now,will be back later,thanks guys
16:33:01 <Skullworks-PGAB> strange - dual screen would be a Ultimax control - but I thought KMB's were all the older BX control
16:33:07 <Skullworks-PGAB> k - later
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16:59:16 <maddash> yargh! there be problem with tilted arc rendering inside gcodemodule.cc!
16:59:41 <fenn> is that a surprise?
17:01:12 <maddash> surprise?! ay, matey!
17:01:48 <feoc> feoc has joined #emc
17:04:14 <maddash> seriously, I want to see the result of {G0X0Y0Z0, G2.4 X1Y1Z1 I.2J.2K1} before I try it out on the CNC
17:11:37 <fenn> of course, but, why would you expect gcodemodule.cc to render something that isnt in the rs274 spec?
17:14:22 <toast> toast has joined #emc
17:21:47 <Skullworks-PGAB> Mad - just cut air ( with your finger on ESTOP )
17:23:13 <Skullworks-PGAB> while a true arc is smoother - maybe a NURBS would get you cutting faster.
17:25:26 <fenn> emc doesnt have support for nurbs either
17:25:40 <fenn> (not yet anyway)
17:27:13 <maddash> jepler: do you have time to try out my patches?
17:28:29 <toast> patchez
17:30:06 <feoc> hello hello
17:30:49 <toast> nurbs in the hizzouse
17:36:41 <lewing> lewing has quit
17:36:48 <Skullworks-PGAB> use nurbs in your CAD/CAM to generate a splined tool path.
17:37:36 <Skullworks-PGAB> line long t=stack of lines to represent a single arc.
17:38:11 <Skullworks-PGAB> EMC does not have file size issues - so blow up that code.
17:41:03 <toast> folks are using nurbs for high speed machining
17:41:47 <maddash> damn, these arcs coming out as spirals
17:42:21 <toast> ?
17:42:59 <petev> petev has joined #emc
17:44:02 <maddash> they're tilted spirals, not tilted arcs. argh!
17:44:27 <toast> is this standard g2/g3 or is this your custom arc thing
17:45:01 <maddash> my 'arc thing'
17:45:39 <toast> o
17:52:17 <maddash> well, gotta go home.
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18:05:45 <jmkasunich> hi pete
18:05:56 <jmkasunich> just saw the bug report about jogwheels
18:14:12 <CIA-8> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/axis.py: this message is hiding real errors, it was printed so often
18:15:54 <CIA-8> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/axis.py: remove more spam
18:16:36 <CIA-8> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/task/taskintf.cc: get rid of more spam
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18:52:19 <robin_sz> evening
18:52:31 <robin_sz> * robin_sz logs on from his shiny new windows laptop
18:53:06 <robin_sz> bought it today, freshly out of the box ;)
18:53:22 <robin_sz> running vista, and MS Office 2007 too, 
18:53:51 <robin_sz> obvioulsy, being Windows, it refuses to work, the windows spyware has decided its not genuine
18:54:47 <robin_sz> steamin' bag of crap 
18:54:56 <robin_sz> the hardware is lovely though :)
18:56:28 <Vq^> robin_sz: maybe you didn't pay enough for it
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19:01:15 <CIA-8> 03jmkasunich 07TRUNK * 10emc2/configs/sim/axis.ini: fix incremental jog increments
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19:22:41 <toast> i hear the pirated version of Vista doesn't have those problems
19:23:00 <toast> I'm planning on installing a pirated version of vista on my next PC, even though it will have a valid license
19:23:16 <JymmmEMC> what problems?
19:23:53 <JymmmEMC> logger_emc: bookmark
19:23:53 <JymmmEMC> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2007-08-04.txt
19:24:05 <jmkasunich> toast: please don't discuss pirated software in this channel
19:25:28 <JymmmEMC> robin_sz: was it a seald box (the laptop) ?
19:36:26 <lerneaen_hydra> random musing: of engineers in general, how many use something tex based and not just word processing?
19:37:14 <JymmmEMC> Text:95%, WP: 5% because they make me!
19:38:09 <lerneaen_hydra> nono, tex, TeX
19:38:44 <JymmmEMC> Text:80%, WP: 5% because they make me, DTP: 15%, LaTex: 0%
19:39:24 <lerneaen_hydra> dtp?
19:39:36 <JymmmEMC> DTP == DeskTop Publishing
19:39:43 <lerneaen_hydra> oh, right
19:39:59 <cradek> I still use LaTeX whenever I write a business letter, quote/invoice or business proposal
19:40:05 <JymmmEMC> In my case, Corel, PS
19:40:16 <JymmmEMC> PS == PostScript
19:40:25 <cradek> I've only recently had openoffice on most of my computers and haven't learned to tolerate/like it yet
19:40:50 <JymmmEMC> I hate OO spreadsheet... doens't do time cals properly
19:41:01 <JymmmEMC> calcs
19:41:04 <lerneaen_hydra> right, I've just started with tex (lyx) and can't see why no-one else seems to use it/know about it
19:41:05 <fenn> html
19:41:19 <cradek> well I don't care for lyx
19:41:21 <fenn> scribus seems really nice
19:41:38 <cradek> you're mistaken if you think nobody uses TeX
19:41:56 <cradek> I suppose most technical papers (journals etc) are still written with it
19:42:11 <cradek> it kicks ass for typesetting any math
19:42:16 <lerneaen_hydra> yeah, exactly
19:42:18 <lerneaen_hydra> anything technical
19:42:34 <lerneaen_hydra> and here I've been buggering around with oo.org for years
19:42:36 <cradek> I wrote my last resume with it too
19:42:43 <cradek> (anything that has to look good)
19:43:13 <JymmmEMC> where's the feature list for scribus?
19:43:33 <lerneaen_hydra> how's scribus compared to indesign?
19:43:49 <fenn> JymmmEMC: hell if i know, i just got it with apt-get
19:44:23 <fenn> i just fired up scribus and couldnt find any built in equation rendering
19:45:13 <robin_sz> JymmmEMC: yeah it was a sealed box, never switched on
19:45:19 <fenn> it worked great for panelizing pcb artwork tho :D
19:45:32 <lerneaen_hydra> isn't scribus more for making things like booklets, leaflets, magasines and so on (page layout, after having made your text/images/whatever)
19:45:37 <JymmmEMC> fenn: I think it's the same reason why Corel has lost all it's fanfair... they market it like everyone knows what it is/does... Not one mention of all the real features it has built in, which is really sad.
19:45:49 <fenn> whereas any other vector program would choke on all the multiple copies
19:46:11 <JymmmEMC> robin_sz: I thought someone in the store might have stolen the key or soemthing.
19:46:44 <JymmmEMC> fenn: Does scribus support multile pages per document?
19:47:05 <robin_sz> toast: i know what you mean about pirated software sometimes being better, we downloaded the kids pirated versions of several DVD's we actually own, just to avoid the obnoxious anti-piracy crap on the front
19:47:42 <robin_sz> JymmmEMC: nah, its dell , they dont have stores, I think it want me to enter the office activation key
19:47:59 <JymmmEMC> robin_sz: Oh, how annoying.
19:48:33 <robin_sz> I'm not going to, as I don't actually want MS Office, i might try and sell it on, as its a full pro copy
19:48:34 <fenn> JymmmEMC: yeah
19:48:41 <robin_sz> with SQL server too
19:48:54 <fenn> JymmmEMC: i couldnt get it to import multi-page pdf's though
19:49:08 <robin_sz> this machien is soooo nice :)
19:49:10 <JymmmEMC> fenn:  could or could not ?
19:49:15 <robin_sz> 2.33ghz core duo
19:49:18 <JymmmEMC> fenn: ah
19:49:20 <robin_sz> 512mb
19:49:45 <JymmmEMC> fenn: you win or nix ?
19:49:53 <fenn> guess
19:50:06 <JymmmEMC> fenn:  do you have a win box?
19:50:11 <fenn> no
19:50:15 <JymmmEMC> ok, nm then
19:50:38 <robin_sz> normally, I'm linux top to toe, but for 3D cad ...
19:51:02 <JymmmEMC> The ONE thing I really like about Corel is that import/export file formats it supports.
19:51:20 <robin_sz> gimp has good import export too
19:51:34 <toast> it would be funny to remanufacture a HF lathe to the same standards larger lathes are
19:51:42 <robin_sz> and theres always 'convert'
19:51:47 <toast> i wonder if you could remanufacture a HF lathe for less money
19:52:02 <fenn> than making from scratch?
19:52:09 <fenn> why bother
19:52:10 <toast> no, than a bigger import lathe
19:52:14 <toast> for giggles, why else
19:52:16 <robin_sz> its expensie to make from scratch
19:52:25 <robin_sz> the price of scratch has rocketed recently
19:52:27 <JymmmEMC> robin_sz: I like the ability to editing PDF's on the fly
19:52:32 <toast> hahahahah <3
19:52:41 <toast> scratch is like up to 115 dollars a barrel
19:52:50 <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
19:52:54 <fenn> what is "scratch"?
19:53:05 <fenn> er, duh nevermind
19:53:12 <toast> some hypothetical product robin has invented
19:53:24 <toast> and that I futher refined to a product that is sold by the barrel
19:53:37 <robin_sz> useful though, you can make almost ANYTHING from it
19:53:40 <fenn> almost
19:53:58 <robin_sz> apart from babies
19:54:00 <toast> i wonder how much money it would cost for the nitralloy 
19:54:04 <toast> to make a new spindle and new leadscrew
19:54:14 <toast> i should price it all out
19:54:34 <robin_sz> MAKE a leadscrew?
19:54:39 <toast> yeah
19:55:00 <robin_sz> just buy a ballscrew
19:55:19 <toast> i'm pretty sure i can make a leadscrew more accurate and cheaper than I can buy a ballscrew for
19:55:29 <robin_sz> no, and no
19:55:42 <toast> okay, you're aware that diamond turning machines use leadscrews and not ballscrews
19:55:52 <toast> hydrostatic leadscrews
19:55:58 <toast> so that's the accuracy, right there
19:56:10 <robin_sz> but cheaper?
19:56:12 <toast> and cheaper, i don't want to have to deal with all the tooling to produce a ballscrew
19:56:13 <robin_sz> is your time free?
19:56:22 <toast> for the purposes of a home project, yes
19:56:37 <toast> like that guy who made a model, working ferrari!
19:56:41 <robin_sz> * robin_sz would just buy a ballscrew
19:56:52 <toast> and that would suck up a ton of the budget
19:56:57 <robin_sz> $100 and you're done
19:57:21 <toast> plus then i don't get to make a screw
19:57:30 <robin_sz> indeed
19:57:34 <toast> and i'd like to
19:57:40 <toast> one day, anyway
19:57:41 <robin_sz> well, thats fine then
19:57:50 <toast> plenty of manuals on how to make leadscrews
19:58:03 <fenn> you can buy acme threaded rod for $1/ft
19:58:12 <toast> yeah but that's not accurate enough
19:58:17 <toast> and is hard to re-finish
19:58:17 <fenn> might be better to start with that as the stock
19:58:21 <CIA-8> 03jmkasunich 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/motion/ (command.c control.c): discard jog requests during feedhold - accepting them and moving when the feedhold is released is 'surprising' to the operator
19:58:21 <toast> nar
19:58:25 <fenn> * fenn shrugs
19:58:32 <toast> once you put the original threads on the screw you need to be very close 
19:58:38 <toast> or you can't correct it
19:58:57 <robin_sz> lovely lovely laptop
19:59:06 <fenn> as long as the pitch is consistent i dont see why it matters
19:59:08 <JymmmEMC> robin_sz: max ram ?
19:59:31 <robin_sz> pardon?
19:59:35 <toast> fenn: the pitch isn't consistant 
19:59:44 <JymmmEMC> robin_sz: max ram the new laptop supports?
19:59:42 <robin_sz> JymmmEMC: 512mb
19:59:54 <robin_sz> for the video card ;)
20:00:08 <robin_sz> its got 4GB of system memory installed
20:00:16 <JymmmEMC> robin_sz: ah ok.
20:00:23 <robin_sz> I presume thats maxxed out
20:00:36 <JymmmEMC> robin_sz:  L2 cache?
20:00:49 <robin_sz> and a Nvidia FX3500 open GL card to drive the LCD
20:00:55 <JymmmEMC> (per cpu/core)
20:01:00 <robin_sz> JymmmEMC: how do I find out?
20:01:08 <JymmmEMC> robin_sz: CPU specs
20:01:19 <JymmmEMC> should say
20:01:20 <robin_sz> not on the desktop
20:01:40 <JymmmEMC> maybe the order details
20:01:44 <robin_sz> maybe
20:01:48 <JymmmEMC> or model#
20:02:34 <JymmmEMC> robin_sz: SN?
20:02:36 <robin_sz> 4mb
20:02:48 <fenn> toast: http://onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?id=255&step=2
20:02:49 <JymmmEMC> robin_sz:  per cpu/core or total?
20:02:55 <robin_sz> * robin_sz shrugs
20:03:05 <robin_sz> intel T7600 @ 2.33 ghz
20:03:52 <JymmmEMC> robin_sz: probably total, 2MB L2 cache not too shabby at all.... Try turning off the page file, and watch the pnly lag in the system be HDD access
20:04:26 <robin_sz> http://processorfinder.intel.com/details.aspx?sSpec=SL9SD
20:04:37 <toast> fenn: ?
20:06:11 <fenn> its an alloy that's commonly nitrided...
20:06:40 <toast> ah, i meant nitralloy, the alloy itself
20:06:40 <toast> not nitrided steel
20:06:49 <toast> 34% or so nickel
20:07:14 <toast> it is nitrided near the end though
20:07:28 <JymmmEMC> robin_sz: Yeah, when I ordered a laptop from Japan, turned off the paging file, and it just SCREAMED. Was totally awesome.
20:08:25 <fenn> yow
20:08:33 <robin_sz> this one seems to be quick enough
20:08:39 <robin_sz> it can kep up with my typing anyway
20:09:26 <JymmmEMC> robin_sz: Intel likes to be really greedy with L2 cache. XEON's had 2MB, and they tossed in 2MB in the mobile cpu's , and still stuck with 512 for desktop/server CPU's.
20:10:22 <JymmmEMC> robin_sz: if you have lots of open apps, just ALT-TAB between them, should be instant, no lag/delay at all.
20:12:20 <toast> aw the website won't quote their nickel alloys
20:12:24 <toast> bastards
20:12:27 <toast> fenn: ty for the link
20:12:30 <fenn> toast: is this some crap you read about in a book?
20:12:43 <fenn> a certain book by moore
20:12:49 <toast> and from a few personal conversations
20:12:57 <toast> the conversations first, backed up by moore's book
20:14:35 <toast> i don't see what the issue with the book would be though
20:14:41 <toast> it's cited in most other precision engineering texts
20:15:43 <JymmmEMC> nickel-alloy has always been random in pricing
20:16:21 <JymmmEMC> I bitched at one supplier because of that
20:16:24 <toast> ha
20:16:25 <toast> awesome
20:16:43 <toast> what does it fluctuate between
20:16:46 <toast> per whatever unit
20:16:52 <fenn> toast: i read about an sr-71 black bird in a book, but it doesnt mean i can just go out and buy one
20:16:52 <toast> pound, 1" round foot
20:16:55 <JymmmEMC> toast: the stock market
20:17:20 <toast> right, that is true
20:17:28 <toast> but if you read several books, and spend all your time studying precision engineering
20:17:43 <toast> you've got a better chance of getting into precision engineering
20:17:56 <toast> or, in your example's case, building an sr-71
20:18:47 <toast> that's the career track i'm persuing, so I would hope I'd know a little more about it than someone who read it in passing
20:22:40 <JymmmEMC> robin_sz: Just FYI...  http://support.euro.dell.com/support/downloads/index.aspx?c=uk&l=en&s=gen
20:22:56 <fenn> toast: you ever heard of "superfinishing"?
20:22:58 <toast> yessir
20:23:04 <fenn> where did you hear about it?
20:23:23 <toast> uh, the very first time?
20:23:27 <fenn> either
20:23:28 <toast> probably a manufacturing textbook
20:23:35 <toast> i think i still have it
20:23:44 <toast> why?
20:23:52 <toast> do you want me to get the title?
20:24:01 <JymmmEMC> wikipedia of course...  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superfinishing
20:24:01 <fenn> only place i've ever seen it was in a random book i found in the top floor of the uni library
20:24:07 <fenn> from like 1953
20:24:11 <toast> i've spoken to people who do it
20:24:18 <toast> and seen applications of it
20:24:20 <fenn> do they still do it with solid blocks of abrasive?
20:24:27 <toast> depends on the application
20:24:30 <toast> for gears, no
20:24:59 <toast> it can be done with solid hones or with a liquid slurry in an ultrasonic bath
20:25:21 <JymmmEMC> http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/129804.html
20:25:20 <toast> but the slurry doesn't give you any getometric defintion or refinement, just surface finish
20:25:26 <fenn> with the slurry do you have some kind of rubber pad you press on the part?
20:25:42 <fenn> hm.. so its just polishing it
20:25:48 <toast> it depends on what you're doing
20:26:09 <toast> i've never personally heard of any rubber pads
20:26:13 <toast> but i don't see why you couldn't use one
20:26:56 <toast> superfinishing can be used to give you better dimensional accuracy, and i guess if you had a complex part, you could use pads to give you that
20:27:17 <toast> but that's only a guess.
20:27:30 <robin_sz> ooh, its got an SD card slot :)
20:27:37 <fenn> aw jeez now there's even a wikipedia entry on it
20:27:53 <JymmmEMC> * JymmmEMC lol @ robin_sz
20:28:00 <toast> hahah beaten to the punch!
20:28:17 <toast> does it say anything interesting about it
20:28:19 <JymmmEMC> fenn: and a nice refernce article too!
20:28:22 <robin_sz> hmm, wont read the card from my nokia though
20:28:24 <awallin> awallin has left #emc
20:28:31 <robin_sz> seen the Nokia 770 PDA thing?
20:28:42 <robin_sz> runs some flavour of debian/ubuntu
20:28:57 <fenn> toast: it doesnt really explain how it works
20:29:02 <robin_sz> tiny tablet PC
20:29:05 <toast> it's a lapping operation
20:29:12 <fenn> not really
20:29:15 <toast> yeah man
20:29:18 <toast> seriously, it is
20:29:40 <toast> like, on the early superfinishing machines for cylinders, the hones move back and forth to give you the same averaging effect
20:29:44 <fenn> it seems sufficiently different to class it as its own process
20:29:48 <JymmmEMC> fenn:  http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/0203rt2.html
20:30:08 <toast> well, it started out as honing stones/sharpening stones
20:30:14 <toast> instead of a lapping plate charged with paste
20:30:15 <toast> so it was
20:31:05 <toast> i really shouldn't say it IS a lapping process, but rather it's very similar in action to a lap
20:31:12 <toast> with differences in the tooling used
20:31:20 <JymmmEMC> robin_sz: vista dont support ext3 =)
20:31:20 <fenn> they say "very fine abrasives" but chrysler was using like 60 grit
20:31:29 <toast> whaaat
20:31:37 <fenn> i think there's some confusion about what the process is exactly
20:31:38 <JymmmEMC> fenn: the other article said 320 grit
20:31:55 <toast> it's a whole set of processes
20:31:56 <JymmmEMC> s/said/mentioned/
20:32:17 <toast> so yeah, i guess i agree there's some arguement to what exactly consititutes superfinishing
20:33:10 <toast> but it's the same general mechanism - the averaging lap/grinding action
20:33:16 <toast> it's not quite grinding, but not quite lapping either
20:33:55 <fenn> ah cool they still have the book.. was afraid it got tossed when they threw out 90% of the books last year
20:35:02 <toast> the sort of difference, in my retarded mind, between lapping and superfinishing
20:35:15 <toast> is that lapping can correct local distortions in geometry
20:35:24 <toast> while superfinishing tends to correct the geometry over an entire part
20:36:16 <toast> with the hard stones, anyway
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20:40:35 <robin_sz> * robin_sz finds the shipping invoice for the laptop
20:40:47 <robin_sz> £2798 ... cheap one
20:41:02 <toast> holy crap
20:41:12 <toast> you could bury somebody for 2898
20:41:21 <toast> er
20:41:26 <toast> whatever number you said.
20:41:30 <robin_sz> I think my car is worth less
20:41:42 <robin_sz> actually .. mine and the wifes together!
20:41:47 <toast> hahaha.
20:41:51 <toast> my hero.
20:56:21 <lerneaen_hydra> hmm anyone here know of a lyx document layout that's similar to arcticle except that it moves title and TOC to seperate pages?
20:57:24 <fenn> cant you make your own layouts?
20:58:12 <lerneaen_hydra> but.. I'm incompetent >.< (actually I've just started playing with it today and don't know how to do that yet)
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21:06:20 <toast> toast has quit
21:07:15 <toast> toast has joined #emc
21:08:37 <JymmmEMC> lerneaen_hydra: Your mill, what kind of quality is it?
21:08:51 <toast> oh god, i can't paste in the windows version of RXVT
21:09:04 <JymmmEMC> lerneaen_hydra: HF, china import being 1, and BP being 10.
21:09:10 <petev> petev has quit
21:11:50 <toast_> toast_ has joined #emc
21:11:55 <toast_> ridiculous
21:12:37 <toast_> ah, there we go
21:12:43 <toast_> http://cgi.ebay.com/20-JIG-GRINDER-Moore-Fosdick-42G-18-x-42_W0QQitemZ150141689325QQihZ005QQcategoryZ12580QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
21:25:28 <lerneaen_hydra> JymmmEMC: hmm, I'm not sure I can say yet
21:25:41 <lerneaen_hydra> for the price, very good
21:25:53 <lerneaen_hydra> compared to the shittiest you can get, also good
21:26:05 <lerneaen_hydra> the machine itself seems to be relatively solidly built
21:26:18 <lerneaen_hydra> no painfully obvious stupid things done
21:26:24 <lerneaen_hydra> still, it's no bridgeport
21:26:46 <fenn> what's that supposed to mean?
21:27:18 <lerneaen_hydra> well, it's just the feeling
21:27:36 <lerneaen_hydra> you can feel that it's not the best machine on the planet, still quite good though
21:27:50 <fenn> because its green? :)
21:28:02 <lerneaen_hydra> exactly :)
21:29:32 <toast_> ?
21:30:08 <lerneaen_hydra> toast_: I was talking about my (significantly smaller) mill
21:30:21 <lerneaen_hydra> a bit cheaper too by the looks of it
21:30:46 <toast_> link?
21:31:01 <lerneaen_hydra> http://www.lerneaenhydra.net/index.php?option=com_rsgallery2&Itemid=32&catid=8
21:31:04 <lerneaen_hydra> some images there
21:31:39 <toast_> neat machine dude
21:32:00 <alex_joni> * alex_joni likes the DHCP sticker
21:32:27 <lerneaen_hydra> alex_joni: indeed :D
21:32:38 <lerneaen_hydra> toast_: thanks, quite simple to retrofit too
21:32:36 <toast_> is that one of the "Mill/Drill" machines
21:32:41 <toast_> retrofitted
21:32:52 <lerneaen_hydra> it's marketed as a mill
21:32:55 <toast_> cool
21:33:01 <toast_> about 900-1000 bucks?
21:33:05 <toast_> for the iron
21:33:21 <lerneaen_hydra> in sweden it's about 2400€
21:33:26 <toast_> hmm
21:33:33 <lerneaen_hydra> in the US, probably 1500€
21:33:32 <toast_> i am a dumb american and can't convert that
21:33:34 <lerneaen_hydra> maybe less
21:33:41 <lerneaen_hydra> probably less
21:33:48 <toast_> i'm pretty sure i recognize that frame
21:34:03 <toast_> gets pretty decent reviews
21:34:14 <lerneaen_hydra> oh? that sounds good
21:34:23 <toast_> yep
21:34:32 <toast_> i'd say on Jymm's scale of 1 being HF and 10 being bridgeport
21:34:40 <toast_> it's probably somewhere between a 5 and a 7
21:34:53 <toast_> somewhere in there.
21:35:00 <lerneaen_hydra> that good? I don't want to touch an HF then
21:35:03 <toast_> hahahah
21:35:03 <lerneaen_hydra> how bad are they?
21:35:15 <toast_> well it depends on the specific iron
21:35:26 <toast_> the worst of the worst don't have any Z movement
21:35:33 <lerneaen_hydra> still sand left in the slides from the casting?
21:35:40 <toast_> worse than that
21:35:45 <toast_> the machine is like, extrusions
21:35:44 <lerneaen_hydra> worse?
21:35:48 <lerneaen_hydra> oh no...
21:35:58 <toast_> the Z axis doesn't have any straightness and wanders
21:36:03 <toast_> so you have to set your height, tram it
21:36:03 <lerneaen_hydra> so shitty deformed alu extrusion?
21:36:06 <toast_> and mill
21:36:08 <toast_> i believe so
21:36:11 <lerneaen_hydra> ...
21:36:17 <lerneaen_hydra> and something like 1mm thick?
21:36:24 <toast_> 1-2mm, yes
21:36:28 <lerneaen_hydra> oh noes...
21:36:37 <toast_> there's some cast iron to it
21:36:39 <toast_> not much
21:36:55 <toast_> HF does sell "better" machines
21:36:55 <lerneaen_hydra> I do definetly not want to touch one of those
21:36:56 <toast_> mini-bridgeports
21:37:03 <lerneaen_hydra> oh, I see
21:37:13 <toast_> that i was kind of interested in hearing how they do
21:37:17 <toast_> they're really fun-sized bridgeports
21:37:35 <toast_> but i don't know if the accuracy and rigidity was also fun-sized
21:37:35 <lerneaen_hydra> neat
21:37:40 <lerneaen_hydra> haha :D
21:37:44 <toast_> never heard of a person using one before
21:38:11 <lerneaen_hydra> I would think that in real life I can machine stuff to about 0.1mm, maybe 0.05 if I'm lucky
21:38:24 <lerneaen_hydra> in alu, 0.1 or so for steel
21:38:32 <toast_> ?
21:38:39 <toast_> you're getting BETTER tolerances in alu?
21:38:56 <toast_> that is tres strange
21:38:56 <lerneaen_hydra> why wouldn't I? it's easier to cut
21:39:09 <toast_> steel can be skim cut
21:39:12 <toast_> very lightly
21:39:15 <toast_> to slowly bring dimensions in
21:39:40 <lerneaen_hydra> yeah, true, if I take a nice good finish cut then tol. should be very similar
21:39:42 <toast_> uh, lemme do this metric conversion real quick
21:39:52 <lerneaen_hydra> leadscrew error was around 0.03mm
21:40:27 <lerneaen_hydra> backlash around 0.1mm, software compensated
21:40:37 <toast_> once you get to about .02 or so mm
21:40:41 <toast_> in aluminum
21:40:47 <toast_> you have a hard time re-cutting it
21:41:06 <toast_> backlash shouldn't be a problem
21:41:07 <toast_> well
21:41:09 <toast_> okay in one direction
21:41:11 <lerneaen_hydra> yeah, usually I take away 0.1mm or so on the final cut
21:41:27 <toast_> add a zero
21:41:26 <lerneaen_hydra> err, 0.3
21:41:27 <toast_> .01
21:41:33 <toast_> ah
21:41:45 <lerneaen_hydra> 0.01 inches?
21:41:47 <toast_> mm
21:41:52 <toast_> .0005 inches
21:41:58 <lerneaen_hydra> for the final cut?
21:42:05 <toast_> no, i'm saying that aluminum doesn't like to cut that shallow
21:42:11 <lerneaen_hydra> oh, right
21:42:09 <toast_> if you have to skim it
21:42:13 <lerneaen_hydra> of course
21:42:30 <toast_> not on coated or carbide tools
21:42:33 <toast_> diamond will do it
21:42:33 <lerneaen_hydra> usually I take 0.2-0.3mm on the final cut, 0.008 inches or so
21:42:56 <toast_> hmm
21:43:06 <toast_> i usually take .020"
21:43:10 <toast_> but i don't know how rigid your mill is
21:43:28 <toast_> and i guess with unknown screw accuracy you increase your accuracy by making smaller motions
21:43:33 <lerneaen_hydra> yeah, had I used a more stable machine I would have taken more
21:43:57 <lerneaen_hydra> I can't recall the µm/N deflection, but it's quite weak
21:44:19 <toast_> ah
21:44:21 <lerneaen_hydra> I need to have a relatively small final cut to not deflect too much
21:44:46 <toast_> still i suppose one can't ask too much out of a machine that size
21:44:51 <toast_> it's still a good machine from what i hear
21:45:01 <lerneaen_hydra> yeah, it's good for the price/size
21:45:09 <lerneaen_hydra> for the type of things it's used for
21:46:15 <toast_> what do you machine
21:46:55 <lerneaen_hydra> oh various odds and ends, I guess the most critical application is PCB drilling
21:47:14 <toast_> you crazy pcb people
21:47:13 <lerneaen_hydra> wrt accuracy
21:47:18 <toast_> ..wrt?
21:47:21 <lerneaen_hydra> with regards to
21:47:23 <toast_> ah
21:47:35 <toast_> i had the funniest drawing at work the other day
21:47:38 <toast_> speaking of holes and accuracy
21:47:58 <lerneaen_hydra> heh, I've got one idea of what that was about
21:48:04 <toast_> i had an engineer dimension half of a drawing in ordinate
21:48:07 <toast_> only half
21:48:31 <toast_> and the major part features are done in ordinate, and this line of holes
21:48:35 <toast_> +/- .005, no sweat
21:48:43 <toast_> but then, off of holes that are .005
21:48:51 <toast_> he's got a surface that is +/- .001
21:48:55 <toast_> OFF the holes
21:49:10 <lerneaen_hydra> err
21:49:36 <toast_> i'd have to bore these +/- .005 holes into .0005 or so
21:49:41 <toast_> to get this surface in tolerance
21:49:43 <toast_> on a bridgeport
21:49:50 <lerneaen_hydra> haha, sweet
21:49:51 <toast_> we have quality engineers.
21:50:07 <toast_> i then went to ask him, what the hell was he thinking
21:50:16 <toast_> and he looks at it and goes "those are supposed to be locating pin holes"
21:50:23 <toast_> "but only the end two."
21:50:29 <lerneaen_hydra> ...
21:50:35 <toast_> so those AREN'T dimensioned to the tolerance they need to be
21:50:47 <toast_> and then he looks at it again and goes
21:50:54 <toast_> well actually on this part only there isn't any locating pins
21:50:59 <toast_> so that surface isn't critical either
21:51:04 <lerneaen_hydra> haha :D
21:51:08 <lerneaen_hydra> gotta love designers
21:51:37 <toast_> he didn't get it, why he couldn't dimension a surface to .001 off off six features that are .005
21:51:44 <toast_> it was amazing
21:52:31 <toast_> i guess the machine i was on did have contouring
21:52:40 <toast_> so i should have measured the holes, and machined the surface wavy
21:53:00 <toast_> (the was no flatness or parallelism callout)
21:53:02 <toast_> *there
21:53:21 <lerneaen_hydra> kind of reminds me of a person I know, he got an order for some type of structure, a square with one hole in each corner, with nearly insane tolerances (0.05 mm translation, as well as asanine colinearity tolerances), they spent days trying to make it, scrapping attempts several times because they were a bit off, and eventually they asked if they could exceed the tolerance a little bit. apparently the holes were for
21:53:22 <lerneaen_hydra>  shackles and a lifting harness
21:53:44 <toast_> hahahahahahahaha
21:53:47 <lerneaen_hydra> ah, right
21:54:01 <toast_> that is amazing
21:54:18 <lerneaen_hydra> they weren't all that pleased
21:54:54 <toast_> i wonder if "put four holes somewhere at each corner" is a legitimate tolerance
21:55:13 <toast_> plus or minus half an inch or something
21:55:57 <lerneaen_hydra> now that would be fun seeing on a drawing
21:57:00 <toast_> the machinists would love it
21:57:05 <toast_> "get the cordless drill"
22:02:46 <alex_joni> good night all
22:03:19 <lerneaen_hydra> 'night
22:07:33 <toast_> has anyone ever been to a machine auction
22:09:18 <toast_> poo
22:13:07 <jmkasunich> toast yea
22:13:29 <jmkasunich> when they shut down the Gould torpedo plant in Euclid ohio
22:13:46 <toast_> what was it like
22:13:48 <jmkasunich> I didn't buy any machines, but I got an arbor press, dividing head, and a bunch of other goodies
22:13:53 <toast_> cheap stuff?
22:13:54 <toast_> rare stuff?
22:14:01 <jmkasunich> all kinds of stuff
22:14:05 <toast_> cheap == inexpensive, not cheap cheap
22:14:29 <jmkasunich> from boxes of misc drill bits with a starting bid of $25, to massive vertical turret lathes
22:14:39 <toast_> how much were the VTLs
22:14:46 <jmkasunich> I don't recall
22:14:48 <toast_> oh
22:14:52 <jmkasunich> pennies on the dollar I know
22:14:53 <toast_> i should go to one
22:15:01 <jmkasunich> (compared to original purchase price)
22:15:03 <toast_> they've got a lot of machine stuff around here
22:15:12 <toast_> but i'd probably cry
22:15:11 <toast_> when i got home
22:15:12 <jmkasunich> biggest collection of 20-21" mics I've ever seen in one place
22:15:15 <toast_> becuase i couldn't buy anything
22:15:38 <jmkasunich> must have been 50 or more of them
22:15:47 <toast_> i guess they do a lot of 20-21" work
22:15:54 <toast_> that's such a weird size to have mics though
22:16:00 <toast_> especially 50
22:16:46 <jmkasunich> Mk 48 torpedo is 21" in diameter
22:16:57 <jmkasunich> so very many of its parts are just under 21"
22:17:53 <toast_> hahaha
22:17:59 <toast_> nice
22:23:00 <toast_> i have this weird fear that by the time i have a garage or other space
22:23:02 <toast_> all the machines will be gone
22:25:00 <cradek> jmkasunich: verdict is three stuck intake valves
22:25:09 <jmkasunich> wow
22:25:17 <jmkasunich> stuck how?
22:25:23 <jmkasunich> rust? no oil? 
22:25:44 <cradek> they stuck overnight
22:26:04 <cradek> so not rust - must not have been oil up there, and it was hot out
22:26:10 <cradek> it's very strange
22:26:23 <jmkasunich> sad
22:26:33 <cradek> I had trouble with the oil line to the rocker arm shaft, but I fixed it (a year ago or more)
22:26:51 <cradek> after that, there was good flow, but I had not checked it lately
22:27:20 <cradek> I got one to loosen up somewhat, they're all soaking with penetrating oil on them now, but I have no high hopes
22:27:49 <cradek> the other two are quite well stuck.
22:28:14 <jmkasunich> that sucks
22:28:37 <cradek> yeah the car might be done after only 55 years of service.
22:38:35 <toast> toast has quit
22:41:43 <jmkasunich> gonna go acquire some photon patterns.... back after sunset
22:42:28 <cradek> http://www.google.com/maps?q=Wymore,+NE,+USA&ie=UTF8&ll=40.090483,-96.682949&spn=0.007092,0.006845&t=h&z=17&om=1
22:42:35 <cradek> haha found it!
22:42:50 <jmkasunich> got parts
22:42:52 <jmkasunich> ?
22:43:08 <cradek> I found the junkyard I remembered
22:43:14 <jmkasunich> right
22:43:36 <cradek> I knew about where it was, but not the name or anything
22:43:41 <cradek> so I looked from "overhead"
22:43:50 <jmkasunich> that still doesn't get you a name
22:43:54 <jmkasunich> but I guess you can just drive there
22:44:04 <cradek> no but I could go there.
22:46:51 <JymmmEMC> John's Muscle Cars & Classic  -  more info »3638 E Willow Rd, Wymore, NE(402) 674-3147
22:47:41 <cradek> hmm!
22:47:56 <JymmmEMC> ever thought of hitting the WEB link?  on that page =)
22:48:24 <Martzis> Martzis has left #emc
22:48:41 <Skullworks-PGAB> Cradek - what died?
22:48:50 <cradek> JymmmEMC: that doesn't seem to be the one I remember, but John would sure know wouldn't he
22:49:07 <cradek> Skullworks-PGAB: my 52 chevy "deluxe'
22:49:08 <JymmmEMC> cradek: It's a start at least,
22:50:32 <Skullworks-PGAB> Had a girlfriend who had a mint condition 48 Mercury coup with a 6v Flat head V8... Enough room in the back seat for 2 couples...
22:50:41 <cradek> Skullworks-PGAB: it could be fixed, but probably not worth the bother
22:51:19 <cradek> two couples huh.
22:51:41 <Skullworks-PGAB> it was "Cavernous"
22:52:04 <Skullworks-PGAB> could almost stand up
22:52:27 <Skullworks-PGAB> with a slight stoop
22:53:50 <Skullworks-PGAB> I'm sure she still has it stashed safely somewhere along with her Fatboy...
22:55:04 <JymmmEMC> cradek: do you have ANY idea on the address?
22:56:31 <cradek> judging from that map I assume it's on Spruce Rd, Wymore NE
22:57:05 <JymmmEMC> cradek: That I got, and since it changes street names further East, I'll suspect it's East Spruce Rd
22:58:11 <cradek> that's all I know - I remember thinking it was south of town, I just found it by looking there
22:58:39 <JymmmEMC> cradek: Well, it's one of these (pg 1 of 4)  http://www.nebraskataxesonline.us/taxcollpage2.aspx?county=Gage&s1=ADDRESS&s2=SPRUCE%20RD&s3=2006&s4=1
22:59:04 <JymmmEMC> cradek: Try the EAST adresses first
22:59:34 <JymmmEMC> cradek: I was trying to narrow down by property value, but too many of them
23:00:30 <JymmmEMC> cradek: and I'm too damn lazy to find the real address fro the lat/lon on my laptop right now.
23:00:44 <cradek> :-)
23:00:47 <cradek> thanks for trying
23:01:06 <cradek> I could just go there at a likely time like Sat morning
23:01:14 <JymmmEMC> cradek: trying my ass, it IS once of those... it's up to YOU to figure out which one =)
23:01:18 <cradek> or, I could call anyone in that town and they'd know
23:01:19 <JymmmEMC> s/once/one/
23:02:00 <JymmmEMC> $129K   http://www.nebraskataxesonline.us/statement.aspx?county=Gage&s1=2006&s2=327&s3=1
23:02:57 <JymmmEMC> getting closer...  http://www.google.com/maps?q=7554+E+Spruce+Rd,+Wymore,+NE+68466,+USA&ie=UTF8&ll=40.073638,-96.626344&spn=0.01307,0.016351&t=h&z=16&iwloc=addr&om=1
23:03:03 <JymmmEMC> got an ref address now
23:03:36 <cradek> http://www.insiderpages.com/b/3717756210
23:04:02 <JymmmEMC> http://www.google.com/maps?saddr=7554+E+Spruce+Rd,+Wymore,+NE+68466&geocode=&daddr=40.090483,-96.682949&f=d&sll=40.073638,-96.626344&sspn=0.01307,0.016351&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=14&om=1
23:06:17 <cradek> hmm, E Spruce Rd is south of Spruce Rd
23:09:34 <cradek> I bet it's Watts, and google gets the map slightly wrong
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23:33:45 <jmkasunich> bit of excitement tonight: http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/pics/IMGP0259_med.JPG
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23:56:22 <jepler> jmkasunich: I can't quite figure out what's going on there
23:56:38 <jepler> the fire is all from the car's fuel?
23:57:00 <jepler> it burned the grass in an odd pattern
23:57:46 <cradek> bizarre
23:59:39 <cradek> neat how the insulation on the wires is burning along like a fuse