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00:34:29 <CIA-8> 03cradek * 10emc2/debian/emc2.files: I didn't mean to check these in
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01:56:04 <robin_z> meep?
01:56:11 <cradek> hi robin
01:56:22 <robin_z> hi ;)
01:56:31 <cradek> what happened to your s?
01:56:52 <cradek> I guess you lost it somewhere
01:57:01 <robin_z> my other PC is using it :)
01:57:17 <cradek> I suppose there are only so many s in the world
02:02:19 <robin_z> yeah, I was lucky to get one
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02:35:34 <LawrenceG> anybody running the new debs (emc2, axis) under ubuntu?
02:38:58 <jepler> LawrenceG: I have run them a little bit
02:39:47 <robin_sz> ubuntu? eek.
02:40:01 <robin_sz> I trod in some ubuntu once.
02:40:12 <LawrenceG> I am having trouble getting the rt modules to install
02:40:38 <jepler> are there errors in 'dmesg'?  (type 'dmesg' at a terminal window and look at the last lines)
02:40:51 <LawrenceG> on adeos.ko, get a files exists error
02:41:08 <LawrenceG> and a bunch of operation not permitted on rtai_*
02:41:26 <LawrenceG> this is in a terminal window when I run emc from the terminal
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02:42:10 <jepler> look at 'dmesg', sometimes it has additional information
02:42:38 <jepler> from what you've told me so far, it sounds like the symptom that when emc fails to start once, it can leave some modules around, and you get this message the next time .. instead of whatever the underlying problem was.
02:42:52 <LawrenceG> dmesg shows a whole pile of unknown symbol errors on all the rtai modules
02:42:54 <jepler> umm, I don't know if what I just said made any sense
02:43:22 <jepler> scroll back to the earliest errors (or use dmesg | less)
02:44:08 <jepler> one thing I ran into on my laptop was that the very first module would complain about my 'APIC', which was disabled.  Do you have a message like that?
02:44:41 <LawrenceG> * LawrenceG looking
02:46:36 <jepler> this is the message I got:
02:46:37 <jepler> ./base/arch/i386/hal/hal.piped:		printk("RTAI[hal]: ERROR, LOCAL APIC CONFIGURED BUT NOT AVAILABLE/ENABLED\n");
02:47:02 <LawrenceG> hmmm.. first error in dmesg seems to be "RTAI[hal] .... yep thats the one I see
02:48:19 <jepler> OK.  The next thing to try is to boot the kernel with the "lapic" flag.  Are you familiar with setting kernel flags in grub?
02:51:38 <LawrenceG> not recently, but I can probably figure it out..... is there a special line you can paste into menu.lst
02:51:43 <jepler> http://pastebin.com/542682
02:52:09 <jepler> basically, copy the group of lines for the -magma kernel to above the AUTOMAGIC line, and then add 'lapic' after 'ro'
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02:53:04 <jepler> what hardware are you using (CPU)?
02:54:06 <jepler> http://www.captain.at/programming/rtai/apic.php
02:54:59 <LawrenceG> its an old 200mhz P?? 196mb
02:55:12 <cradek> looks like this error would go away if I compiled the kernel without CONFIG_X86_LOCAL_APIC but I don't know what problems that might cause
02:55:14 <LawrenceG> suspect there will be an issue with period as well
02:55:42 <LawrenceG> rebooting now
02:55:49 <jepler> original pentiums might not have a local APIC
02:56:44 <jepler> bah, ignore me, I don't know why I said that
02:58:06 <LawrenceG> I get spoiled running 2+ghz devel machine... its takes patience on the sub 500mhz boxes, but they still work!
02:59:18 <cradek> LawrenceG: did you just install this ubuntu?
03:00:09 <LawrenceG> I was using it as a test box for working with the surplus 3ph ac servo driver
03:00:22 <LawrenceG> so its been around for a few months
03:00:45 <cradek> LawrenceG: are you using the packages from http://solaris.cs.utt.ro/emc2/ ?
03:01:06 <LawrenceG> yes... kernel, modules, emc2, axis
03:01:10 <cradek> gotcha
03:01:30 <jepler> cradek: hm, in my linux-2.6.git tree (indeterminate version) there's a flag CONFIG_X86_GOOD_APIC which seems to force use of the local APIC .. with a scary comment
03:01:33 <cradek> I didn't know you were doing that; I'm still a bit in the development phase with these
03:01:46 <cradek> jepler: interesting
03:03:25 <cradek> LawrenceG: I encourage you to use them, but beware they're still changing 
03:03:52 <LawrenceG> same problem.... "no local apic present or hradware disabled"
03:04:11 <cradek> have a look at 'cat /proc/cmdline'
03:04:15 <LawrenceG> showed up higher up in the desg stuff.... can play with bios settings
03:04:31 <cradek> make sure it says lapic there
03:05:02 <LawrenceG> says root=/dev/hda3 ro lapic
03:05:23 <cradek> hmm, yeah maybe you need to look at the system bios
03:05:52 <LawrenceG> I'm pretty sure all the power save stuff is shut off....
03:06:53 <LawrenceG> no problem thats its under devel... I am very happy to see that.... it will make installs very easy.
03:07:22 <LawrenceG> I wanted to see if I could help test it
03:07:36 <cradek> that's great
03:07:41 <cradek> I appreciate it
03:07:50 <cradek> maybe there's something about APIC in your bios 
03:07:59 <cradek> note ACPI (power management) does not equal APIC
03:10:09 <jepler> The other approach would be to rebuid the kernel and rtai without X86_FEATURE_APIC, but that would take a fortnight on your machine
03:10:28 <LawrenceG> rats... monitor is not syncing to bios display...
03:11:31 <LawrenceG> got it.... had to power up with monitor disconnected....
03:14:09 <jepler> """What is APIC? APIC is a distributed set of devices that make up an interrupt controller. In current implementations, each part of a system is connected by an APIC bus. One part of the system, the "local APIC," delivers interrupts to a specific processor; for example, a machine with three processors must have three local APICs. Intel has been building local APICs into their processors since the Pentium P54c in 1994. Computers built with genuine
03:14:18 <jepler>  -- http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/system/sysperf/IO-APIC.mspx
03:14:45 <cradek> nice find
03:15:04 <cradek> I think I remember some of those very old boards had bios settings about interrupt routing
03:15:30 <jepler> looks like P54c covers 75MHz and up Pentiums
03:15:33 <jepler> http://www.x86.org/intel.doc/586manuals.htm
03:15:45 <cradek> I have a couple P90 around I think
03:15:51 <jepler> but some of the comments in the linux source code seem to imply that it was only usable since Pentium MMX
03:16:10 <cradek> MMX were the P166?
03:16:14 <jepler>  * If we were told we had a good local APIC, check for buggy Pentia,
03:16:15 <jepler>  * i.e. all B steppings and the C2 stepping of P54C when using their
03:16:15 <jepler>  * integrated APIC (see 11AP erratum in "Pentium Processor
03:16:15 <jepler>  * Specification Update").
03:16:21 <jepler>  -- asm-i386/bugs.h
03:16:28 <LawrenceG> is linux considered to be a pnp aware o/s?
03:16:30 <cradek> yikes
03:16:49 <jepler> cradek: I don't know about MMX and speeds.  This is the list I was reading: http://www.x86.org/intel.doc/586manuals.htm
03:16:58 <jepler> bbl
03:17:06 <cradek> LawrenceG: I think so
03:17:34 <cradek> LawrenceG: anything about interrupts or interrupt routing in there?
03:18:00 <LawrenceG> will try turning it on.... that should leave the pci resource allocations to theos
03:18:03 <cradek> LawrenceG: if your pentium is one of those blacklisted, you might be somewhat out of luck
03:19:38 <LawrenceG> bios is from 1995... it does have the table of irq/dma allocations
03:21:35 <LawrenceG> main proc is a p54c (on bios boot info splash)
03:22:06 <cradek> when it boots, we'll check the stepping and see if it's blacklisted
03:22:40 <cradek> we could also try booting with "noapic"
03:22:56 <LawrenceG> booting now
03:23:37 <cradek> I've got a Pentium PRO 200 board/processor here you could have if you were nearby
03:26:21 <LawrenceG> np.... I have a dual pp200 in the junk somewhere... not sure if that would help or hurt emc
03:26:57 <cradek> you'd also have to rebuild to get smp, and I don't know what rtai thinks of that
03:27:11 <cradek> but you could easily run it on one processor
03:29:46 <LawrenceG> trying boot with noapic..... 
03:30:02 <cradek> did you check your processor stepping (cat /proc/cpuinfo)
03:30:16 <cradek> would like to know if it's one listed in bugs.h
03:30:26 <LawrenceG> will in a moment
03:31:00 <LawrenceG> itel pentium stepping 0c flashed by on booting
03:36:42 <LawrenceG> ok.... intel, family 5, model 2, pentium 75-200, stepping 12, 199.453mhz
03:37:30 <cradek> hmm, I wonder if stepping 12 is B or C2
03:41:30 <cradek> LawrenceG: does noapic have any effect?
03:41:51 <jepler> http://pastebin.com/542718
03:41:58 <LawrenceG> still failed..... looking through dmesg now
03:42:18 <jepler> it looks like 5 / 2 / 12 doesn't trigger the test
03:43:09 <LawrenceG> no panic anyway!
03:43:12 <jepler> cradek: are you sure that the person who used 'noapic' was actually able to run emc, or just to boot with the realtime kernel?  The way I read the source to rtai3.3test4 it won't load the realtime modules without an APIC
03:43:28 <cradek> jepler: I'm 100% sure
03:43:46 <jepler> LawrenceG: well, that code is actually #if'd out, because CONFIG_X86_GOOD_APIC isn't defined in cradek's kernel
03:43:47 <cradek> jepler: it surprised me too
03:44:23 <cradek> maybe I should rebuild with 586MMX and GOOD_APIC
03:45:24 <cradek> althought that still wouldn't have helped jmk's machine which needed 'noapic'
03:45:31 <jepler> I'm pretty sure LawrenceG's machine isn't MMX
03:45:35 <jepler> so it won't help him either
03:45:52 <cradek> hmm.
03:46:14 <cradek> this is a mess and I don't remember it ever being a problem with 2.4 kernels.
03:46:45 <cradek> It would be nice if there was a combination of settings that would give me that old behavior, whatever it was
03:46:58 <cradek> of course maybe I've just been lucky for a long time
03:48:06 <jepler> rebuild with CONFIG_X86_LOCAL_APIC off?
03:48:07 <LawrenceG> dmesg still gives RTAI[hal]: ERROR local apic configured but not available/enabled
03:53:31 <jepler> goodnight folks
03:53:42 <Jymmm> G'Night jepler
03:54:09 <LawrenceG> thanks for helping
03:54:33 <cradek> LawrenceG: I'm going to build a new kernel package that should fix this.
03:54:41 <cradek> LawrenceG: it will take a little while.
03:54:59 <LawrenceG> I can test it whenever you say
03:55:20 <cradek> ok I will let you know
03:55:25 <cradek> it will probably be done in an hour or less
03:55:30 <LawrenceG> not nearly as long as building on this box!
03:55:46 <cradek> yeah, days faster probably
03:56:01 <jepler> I was joking when I said "fortnight", but probably not by more than a factor of 10...
03:56:24 <jepler> ugh, another 190 megs of updates on my fedora machine
03:56:30 <LawrenceG> I started palying with emc in about 1997 and it took 2 weeks to get my first running system so you are right
03:56:32 <cradek> it would probably take no more than a day or two.
03:56:49 <cradek> jepler: holy crap
03:57:41 <jepler> looks like they upgraded kde from 3.5.0 to 3.5.1
03:57:46 <jepler> == 150 megs
03:57:59 <cradek> LawrenceG: does that machine have working network so you can use apt-get upgrade?
03:58:09 <cradek> jepler: do you use kde?
03:58:13 <jepler> cradek: nope!
03:58:20 <cradek> jepler: that's pretty funny then
03:58:22 <A-L-P-H-A> when stuff updates, does the old stuff get purged?
03:58:46 <LawrenceG> cradek: yes... all setup with the .ro repository
03:58:51 <cradek> LawrenceG: cool
03:58:55 <cradek> A-L-P-H-A: "depends"
03:58:58 <jepler> If I'd known then what I know now, I might have installed ubuntu on this machine
03:59:21 <cradek> jepler: of course it's never too late
03:59:26 <A-L-P-H-A> cradek, oh
03:59:39 <cradek> A-L-P-H-A: what specifically do you mean?  I can give a better answer.
04:00:01 <A-L-P-H-A> like, if I do an apt-get update kde, will it clean everything up nicely?
04:00:37 <cradek> apt-get upgrade replaces old packages with the new.  It does it carefully and nicely.
04:01:28 <cradek> for example if you have a config file that you changed, but the package updates it, it will show you the differences and ask which you want to keep.
04:01:41 <A-L-P-H-A> cool
04:02:14 <cradek> typically though, software can be updated without asking any questions like that.
04:02:16 <fenn> unless you're running the apt-rpm patch, in which case is gleefully ransacks your system, leaving a mess that you cant even fix with a rescue disk
04:02:30 <A-L-P-H-A> :(
04:02:32 <cradek> what is apt-rpm?
04:02:42 <fenn> so dont ever try to upgrade glibc with rpm
04:02:49 <fenn> apt-get for rpm based distro's
04:02:55 <fenn> its an ugly hack really
04:03:01 <cradek> who would use that?  that's crazy talk
04:03:12 <A-L-P-H-A> <shrug>
04:03:16 <A-L-P-H-A> <--- newb remember?
04:03:27 <A-L-P-H-A> I should really turn on my CNC machine... I haven't in months.
04:03:37 <A-L-P-H-A> stupid machine, sitting there doing dink.
04:03:43 <fenn> stupid humans
04:04:17 <fenn> kinkos should have cnc mills
04:04:23 <cradek> haha
04:04:37 <fenn> and 3d scanners
04:05:11 <cradek> that would certainly be branching out into different markets.
04:05:22 <fenn> they could afford it
04:05:24 <A-L-P-H-A> yummm... 3d scanners.
04:05:29 <A-L-P-H-A> I would so love one...
04:05:40 <A-L-P-H-A> take apart my cellphone, and make a cover for it.
04:08:23 <A-L-P-H-A> how cool would alu cell phone cover be?!?! :)
04:08:30 <A-L-P-H-A> cover = case
04:08:52 <cradek> I think my previous phone was Ti - it was very light and wore well
04:09:02 <fenn> i think titanium is the "how cool would it be" material these days
04:09:06 <A-L-P-H-A> :(
04:09:13 <A-L-P-H-A> I'm too poor to make an ti case.
04:09:17 <Jymmm> I'd like to make a wood shell for my cellphone, but too darn thin =)
04:09:19 <Jymmm> =(
04:09:20 <cradek> I hear Ti is cheap now
04:09:22 <A-L-P-H-A> and besides, it would involve forming.
04:09:25 <A-L-P-H-A> really?
04:09:28 <fenn> not that cheap
04:09:37 <cradek> yeah mine was thin and stamped, not milled
04:09:44 <fenn> carbon fiber/kevlar would be more suitable for custom work
04:10:04 <A-L-P-H-A> yeah... stamped works for large numbers.
04:10:06 <A-L-P-H-A> not for one offs.
04:10:21 <A-L-P-H-A> hmm... not sude how I would like a CF weaved case.
04:10:23 <fenn> hard-coat anodized aluminum would wear well
04:10:46 <A-L-P-H-A> I got a hard coater around here.
04:10:48 <fenn> you'd have to have aluminum buttons to match
04:11:37 <cradek> I think if you're going to make art, make art - not a cover for a piece of junk throwaway consumer item
04:12:13 <A-L-P-H-A> all cell phones are.
04:12:18 <fenn> and if you're going to make art, don't weld a bunch of rusty crap together in my shop and leave it laying around on the floor
04:12:21 <A-L-P-H-A> are throw away.
04:12:28 <A-L-P-H-A> try keeping a phone longer than 3 years
04:12:32 <cradek> yeah I know, that's actually my point
04:12:45 <A-L-P-H-A> hahaha
04:12:50 <A-L-P-H-A> who played in your shop fenn?
04:13:01 <fenn> * fenn sighs
04:13:05 <cradek> it wasn't me
04:13:08 <A-L-P-H-A> hehe
04:13:24 <cradek> I have welded rusty crap together, but called it a repair job, not art
04:13:25 <A-L-P-H-A> I'm going to machine some spikes for my snowboard (stomp pad)
04:13:38 <A-L-P-H-A> tomorrow.
04:17:50 <A-L-P-H-A> something like these. http://cgi.ebay.com/Snowboard-Stomp-pad-Dakine-stomp-pad-Studs-New_W0QQitemZ7216768726QQcategoryZ62170QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
04:19:17 <fenn> looks like a lathe job
04:25:50 <cradek> how do those 6 things attach to whatever?
04:26:33 <cradek> oh I see it says adhesive
04:50:27 <LawrenceG> cradek: how is that kernel build going?
04:51:08 <cradek> finished, working on updating the repository now
04:51:44 <LawrenceG> cool.... do you have scripts set up for building the debs? or is it in the make files
04:51:59 <cradek> it's an unholy combination of things
04:52:26 <LawrenceG> I believe it....
04:54:28 <cradek> ok, uploading everything now.  maybe 10 mins.
04:55:10 <LawrenceG> how close is the offical release?
04:55:37 <cradek> I was shooting for the end of last year
04:55:47 <cradek> but that doesn't answer your question...
04:56:05 <cradek> mostly it's in the hands of ray and jmk, they are working on last-minute stuff.
04:56:50 <LawrenceG> well, I have been using emc2 since about the middle of last year.... the new config stuff looks good... I'd like to play with cl a bit.
04:57:02 <cradek> aside from the configurating tools, I think emc2 is ready
04:57:30 <cradek> it does MANY things better than emc1 already.
04:58:17 <LawrenceG> yes, I havent used the subroutines and conditional stuff yet.... But I have made 1/2 a dozen circuit boards
04:58:41 <LawrenceG> some where prettier than others
04:58:52 <cradek> that's the way it goes I'm sure
04:59:42 <LawrenceG> getting repeatable depth control is hard on the shoptask because of the huge rack and pinion feed
04:59:53 <LawrenceG> on the quill...
05:00:08 <LawrenceG> would like to add a small high speed spindle and z axis
05:10:45 <cradek> still sending.....
05:11:21 <cradek> on my PCBs I cut .0045 deep iirc
05:11:33 <cradek> it's pretty critical since it's a V tool
05:12:30 <LawrenceG> yea... I did one board and it was perfect.... peeled the copper off cleanly without disturbing the fiberglass
05:12:46 <cradek> peeled?
05:13:04 <LawrenceG> too deep and the fiberglass messes things up
05:13:04 <cradek> I leave the extra copper on the board - it doesn't hurt anything
05:13:18 <cradek> sometimes I use it as the ground plane
05:13:25 <LawrenceG> well... cut the copper isolation tracks cleanly
05:13:38 <LawrenceG> yea I leave all the extra on as well
05:15:07 <LawrenceG> a buddy of mine just built a small router table and cut a double sidded board... very nice... it is made from suplus printer steppers and 1/4 20 all thread with bronnze bearings running on ground rod ways
05:15:35 <cradek> what are the leadnuts?
05:15:50 <LawrenceG> he made anti backlash nuts from brass plumbing fittings threaded on the inside
05:16:06 <cradek> a spring loaded deal?
05:16:08 <LawrenceG> about a 10x10x3" work zone
05:16:33 <cradek> sounds neat
05:16:38 <cradek> he should post some photos
05:16:41 <cradek> run by emc?
05:16:50 <LawrenceG> I got him to take lots of pictures so he could do a web page.... he is running emc2/axis
05:17:00 <cradek> cool
05:17:36 <cradek> what did he use for stepper drivers?
05:17:50 <LawrenceG> he even made a spindle from an old router shaft/collet driven by a treadmill motor
05:18:11 <cradek> cool, that's closed-loop speed control then
05:18:31 <LawrenceG> some 3955 boards ge got from pmi I think
05:18:32 <cradek> I bet he had to gear it up a lot...
05:19:17 <LawrenceG> treadmill motor runs at 6000rpm@90vdc... I think his speed up is between 2 and 3
05:19:45 <cradek> 12-18k is a good range for small stuff
05:20:02 <LawrenceG> only problem so far is the treadmill motor gets very toasty.... needs fan cooling
05:20:21 <cradek> yeah they usually have fans on the back shaft
05:21:27 <LawrenceG> 67mb of updates.... downloading now
05:22:11 <cradek> no, the upload isn't done!
05:22:11 <LawrenceG> opps
05:22:21 <cradek> I wish there was a way I could prevent that...
05:22:27 <LawrenceG> control c...
05:22:34 <cradek> I bet apt wouldn't install them because the gpg sig doesn't match.
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22:16:17 <zelazny.freenode.net> topic is: "Welcome to the Enhanced Machine Control forum - Support and development of a linux based CNC control. | Home:www.linuxcnc.org | Regular Developers' meetings every Sunday 14:00-18:00 GMT | wiki up @ http://wiki.linuxcnc.org | EMC usage map: http://www.frappr.com/emctheenhancedmachinecontroller"
22:16:17 <zelazny.freenode.net> Users on #emc: logger_aj scott__ k4ts Jymmm acemi giacus_afk alex_joni zwisk Ephexis A-L-P-H-A bill20r3 paelscrit anonimasu jepler SWPadnos LawrenceG CIA-8 picnet fenn jtr_ @ChanServ ccjoe cradek djb_rh bill2or3 robin steves_logging ValarQ websys 
22:16:21 <cradek> hmm, sf cvs is still down.
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22:20:42 <jepler> if you clone my git repository of emc2 (git://axis.unpy.net/emc.git) you can at least perform actions like git-diff offline
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23:04:06 <alex_joni> night all
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