00:00:07 <bill2or3> I'm planning to make a small mill from scratch
00:00:12 <bill2or3> about mini-mill sized
00:00:30 <k4ts> night
00:00:35 <k4ts> k4ts has quit
00:00:48 <bill2or3> night k4ts
00:00:50 <sed_> http://www.jrkerr.com/boards.html
00:02:01 <sed_> Amplifier capable of driving 6 amps continuously at up to 48vdc. Built-in thermal,
00:02:03 <sed_> overcurrent and undervoltage protection.
00:02:18 <bill2or3> ahh, I'm using steppers.
00:02:20 <bill2or3> not servos
00:02:53 <bill2or3> oh, 
00:02:56 <bill2or3> * bill2or3 scrolls down
00:03:22 <sed_> you reading the pdf or the page?
00:03:57 <SWPadnos> at those prices, you're better off with Geckos
00:04:08 <SWPadnos> and you can throw in a G-Rex with the extra cash
00:04:15 <sed_> oh? where are Geckos?
00:04:22 <SWPadnos> http://www.geckodrive.com
00:04:56 <SWPadnos> G320 for servos, G201 or G202 for steppers
00:05:28 <sed_> whats the differance between servo and sttepper?
00:05:30 <SWPadnos> the G-Rex does extremely fast pulse rates, so you don't need the step multipliers in the G340 or G212/G210)
00:05:43 <SWPadnos> servo = DC motor that just runs when voltage is applied
00:06:05 <SWPadnos> stepper = dual-coil motor that needs external controls to change the currents through the two phases
00:06:18 <SWPadnos> (ie, internally vs externally commutated motors)
00:06:39 <sed_> which one is gooder?
00:06:47 <SWPadnos> depends on the application
00:06:55 <SWPadnos> for the most part, servos are better
00:07:18 <SWPadnos> they're more expensive for small motors though, so for smaller apps, steppers can be a better choice
00:08:01 <SWPadnos> Mariss (the owner/engineer at Geckodrive) uses the rule of thimb that steppers are generally better for <200W, servos for >300W, and it depends between 200 and 300
00:08:06 <SWPadnos> thumb
00:08:19 <bill2or3> sed, I asked a ton of (probablly annoying) questions here and my decision was "use steppers"
00:08:24 <bill2or3> heh
00:08:35 <SWPadnos> but you're valuing cost over everything
00:08:46 <SWPadnos> and you havea very small mill / project
00:09:09 <sed_> I want to drive the knee on my mill for the z axis
00:09:21 <SWPadnos> a Bridgeport (or a near-BP-sized Jet), is at the end of the stepper viability range
00:09:30 <SWPadnos> you eed a servo, or a huge stepper for that
00:09:32 <SWPadnos> need
00:10:00 <SWPadnos> when you get into larger machines, and higher speeds, servos become more cost effective, because they work the opposite of steppers
00:10:45 <bill2or3> that's true, my design objectives are pretty low-end.
00:10:50 <SWPadnos> a servo can be overdriven for short periods of time, to get through a hard spot, so you can rate a servo for the amount of torque you expect to need
00:11:07 <SWPadnos> and you'll have headroom for short bursts of extra power
00:11:39 <SWPadnos> a stepper is a constant power device above its corner frequency (usuallly in the couple hundred to 1k RPM range, I think)
00:11:52 <SWPadnos> that means that as you go faster, you have less torque available
00:12:15 <SWPadnos> there's nothing you can do to increase the torque at high speeds
00:12:41 <cradek> sure there is - you increase the voltage
00:13:22 <bill2or3> time to go home, bye.
00:13:28 <SWPadnos> yes - that gives you a higher constant power, but for a given supply voltage, you'll still have a constant power device, so torque will decrease linearly with speed
00:13:40 <cradek> sure
00:14:10 <SWPadnos> and, you'll be dissipating lots more power in the motor, so heat becomes a big issue
00:14:14 <cradek> all you have to do is not go too fast...  they sure are nice and cheap.
00:14:27 <SWPadnos> right - for slow / low power apps, they're fine
00:14:37 <sed_> http://puga.mauibuilt.com/shop/DSCF0091.JPG
00:14:40 <sed_> thats my mill
00:14:48 <SWPadnos> a BP-sized machine  doesn't necessarily qualify
00:15:23 <SWPadnos> what's the total weight on that machine?
00:15:41 <sed_> thousand pounds??? if that
00:16:11 <SWPadnos> ok - what's the table size
00:16:37 <sed_> um 8x30?? small
00:16:57 <sed_> has like 24" of travel on X
00:17:36 <sed_> the knee is not that hard to crank
00:17:48 <SWPadnos> they usually aren't - the 10TPI screw helps ;)
00:17:58 <SWPadnos> at least on a bridgeport
00:17:58 <sed_> think its 8
00:18:13 <sed_> 1.25 per rev
00:18:27 <SWPadnos> 1.25 mm?
00:18:42 <SWPadnos> or 0.125?
00:18:48 <sed_> sorry 0.125
00:19:10 <sed_> so that would make it 8
00:19:26 <SWPadnos> well - a bridgeport knee+saddle+table is around 900 pounds, and has a 10TPI screw
00:19:34 <SWPadnos> that's before you add a vise or a workpiece
00:19:53 <sed_> thats as heavy as my mill in total with the stand Im sure
00:19:59 <SWPadnos> heh - probably
00:20:29 <SWPadnos> to run a BP knee, you should have at least a 40 in-lb servo, and 50-60 is preferable
00:20:42 <SWPadnos> (a 40 gets hot in normal use)
00:21:15 <sed_> http://puga.mauibuilt.com/shop/DSCF0085.JPG
00:21:20 <sed_> thats my lathe
00:21:34 <sed_> I probably shold have cleand up before I took the pictures
00:21:51 <SWPadnos> a stepper would need to be 1.5-2x the torque, so figure 75 in-Lb, or 1200 oz-in
00:22:21 <SWPadnos> your mill has probably 1/3 the weight to move, but 8/10 the drive ratio
00:22:41 <SWPadnos> so you probably need a 600 oz-in stepper or more for the knee
00:24:02 <sed_> how much do they cost about??
00:24:27 <SWPadnos> damfino
00:24:32 <SWPadnos> I'm a servo guy ;)
00:25:02 <sed_> so how much would a  40 in-lb servo cost??
00:25:07 <sed_> :)
00:25:39 <SWPadnos> loads, if you get it new, like $1200
00:25:46 <sed_> dam
00:25:52 <sed_> the mill cost less
00:26:11 <SWPadnos> you only need half that though, so something in the $600 -700 range (new)
00:26:23 <SWPadnos> ebay has servos in that range pretty frequently
00:26:42 <sed_> I would like one I could attach the hand crank to..
00:27:11 <SWPadnos> you'd generally use a belt drive to couple the servo to the crank, so you could probably have a handle after the gear
00:27:33 <sed_> 1" bellt do it?
00:27:37 <SWPadnos> note that a knee drive without feedback is probably a bad idea, unles syou really overspec the stepper motor
00:28:02 <SWPadnos> overkill, the best elts are Gates GT2, and 15mm width would be plenty for you
00:28:05 <SWPadnos> belts
00:28:30 <SWPadnos> har dto find the pulleys online though (or at least, hard to find both belts and pulleys at teh same place)
00:28:46 <sed_> I think I have a source localy
00:28:51 <SWPadnos> cool
00:28:57 <sed_> just bought some cogged belts for a polisher
00:29:09 <SWPadnos> GT2 seem to be harder to find for some reason
00:29:13 <SWPadnos> could be the patents and stuff
00:29:47 <sed_> If I lived in the real world I would just wait for some old ebay CNC I could retro fit
00:29:53 <SWPadnos> heh
00:29:58 <SWPadnos> plenty to choose from right now
00:30:31 <sed_> My Friend got a working Maho 400 for like $2500
00:31:38 <sed_> no 1500
00:31:41 <sed_> I belive
00:32:02 <SWPadnos> there are a lot of good deals (now that I already bought a mill)
00:37:56 <sed_> well time to go home, thanks for your help
00:38:03 <SWPadnos> sure - see you later
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00:41:26 <giacus> G night 
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07:34:37 <lilo> [Global Notice] Hi all. We just experienced a brief connectivity loss on a main rotation server. Looking at the problem now. Apologies for the inconvenience!
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11:53:28 <giacus> morning
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13:32:46 <rayh> Hi fenn.  You becoming a day person now or just not sleeping at all? 
13:33:21 <fenn> i have a 25.5 hour schedule
13:33:54 <rayh> each day?  
13:34:18 <fenn> i try to skip the "wake up at 10 pm" part of the cycle as fast as i can
13:34:40 <rayh> Okay.
13:36:22 <fenn> i have some responsibilities now so i guess i'll have to try to stay on regular hours
13:36:53 <rayh> Really.  You able to elaborate?
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14:31:20 <les_w> morning!
14:31:46 <cradek> hi les
14:31:49 <giacus> morning les_w 
14:31:54 <jepler> hi jacky
14:31:54 <giacus> hi cradek 
14:32:04 <les_w> great fun last night!
14:32:11 <giacus> yeah :)
14:32:14 <les_w> so my sound was ok?
14:32:16 <giacus> nice music
14:32:27 <giacus> les_w: great !
14:32:44 <giacus> no distortion ;P
14:33:16 <les_w> I managed to route digital direct to paltalk
14:33:24 <jepler> * jepler looks at the screenshot of "weave"
14:33:41 <giacus> les_w: nice
14:34:16 <les_w> the weave stuff reminds me a little of the dovetail gcode I am making
14:35:05 <les_w> I may write it up as a little expert system c program to generate the code
14:35:31 <les_w> enter dimensions, type of dovetail, etc
14:36:29 <les_w> I have a swivel so I can lock the spindle at 30,45,60,90 degrees
14:36:30 <cradek> I don't understand why he doesn't just generate g-code for that path
14:36:41 <les_w> the weave?
14:36:45 <cradek> yeah
14:37:02 <les_w> i lost the link
14:37:12 <cradek> it's email
14:37:18 <les_w> oh let me look
14:37:44 <jepler> there's a jpeg attachment to the last mail from Colin Wildsmith
14:38:00 <fenn> http://fenn.freeshell.org/weavesnapshot1.jpg
14:38:20 <cradek> holy cow look at his rapids
14:38:34 <fenn> nice blend huh
14:38:40 <cradek> ugh
14:38:54 <fenn> * fenn cackles
14:39:06 <les_w> yeah, well little c programs to generate special g codes are pretty easy
14:39:14 <les_w> Eveb I can write them!
14:39:23 <les_w> even
14:39:25 <les_w> haha
14:40:31 <jepler> I also find it easy to write programs to generate g code
14:42:19 <les_w> well, I had better get to wiring
14:42:27 <les_w> converting to optocouplers
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16:49:59 <bill2or3> g'morining people.
16:50:04 <bill2or3> morning, too.
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19:05:25 <Jymmm> Howdy!
19:07:26 <A-L-P-H-A> runaway. run away! r u n!!!!!
19:07:48 <Jymmm> OH SHIT A-L-P-H-A HERE!  RUN RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
19:07:58 <A-L-P-H-A> good.
19:08:02 <A-L-P-H-A> you better fear me!
19:08:19 <Jymmm> it be much easier to just /kick you
19:08:36 <A-L-P-H-A> abuse of power...
19:08:39 <A-L-P-H-A> sad sad sad.
19:08:42 <giacus> :D
19:08:50 <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A and your point is?
19:08:58 <A-L-P-H-A> just take your abuse like a good beeeyatch.
19:09:53 <Jymmm> and I have an alias for it.... dont tempt me
19:09:59 <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, what ever happened to that machine you had?
19:10:14 <Jymmm> what do you mean?
19:10:17 <A-L-P-H-A> the one with sooo many initial problems...
19:10:21 <A-L-P-H-A> did you get them all resolved?
19:10:42 <A-L-P-H-A> that gantry thing.
19:10:47 <Jymmm> AS best to be expected, yeah. Better if I had geckos of course.
19:11:05 <A-L-P-H-A> what cha been making with it?
19:11:13 <A-L-P-H-A> my mill hasn't been turned on in like 6 months.
19:11:22 <A-L-P-H-A> it's sitting there... doing nothing.
19:11:23 <Jymmm> Signs, have pics, but haven't posted them yet.
19:11:25 <A-L-P-H-A> nor my lathe.
19:11:30 <A-L-P-H-A> post post.
19:11:32 <A-L-P-H-A> let me see.
19:12:01 <Jymmm> let me see what I have available, gimme a few. you sw the parrot, right?
19:12:19 <A-L-P-H-A> nope
19:12:28 <A-L-P-H-A> I haven't seen anything... I haven't been in here much.
19:12:44 <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, just put them up on flickr or something
19:14:05 <A-L-P-H-A>  I'll check them later... as my blood sugar level I think just dropped... as I'm suddenly feeling really tired
19:14:21 <A-L-P-H-A> then again, I've been up for like 4 hrs, without eating anything yet
19:14:38 <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A chk your msgs
19:15:30 <Jymmm> http://static.flickr.com/33/61765799_f610fa36cb_m.jpg
19:16:14 <A-L-P-H-A> checking
19:16:41 <A-L-P-H-A> what are you using to draw things?
19:17:07 <Jymmm> art or cad wise?
19:17:11 <A-L-P-H-A> both
19:17:44 <Jymmm> various tools, depending on the situation... Corel mostly of editing vector graphics
19:28:27 <A-L-P-H-A> cool.
19:30:20 <jepler> Jymmm: Thanks for suggesting that onsrud(?) tool for cutting plexiglass.  I finally got back to that project last night, and the results were very good.
19:31:01 <Jymmm> jepler Yeah? let me see
19:31:24 <Jymmm> jepler and which one did you order?
19:34:01 <jepler> Jymmm: I don't remember which one.  "O" cut, 3/16, something..
19:34:17 <Jymmm> jepler you have pics?
19:35:36 <Jymmm> jepler: They have about 8 different 3/16" 'O' Cut bits. I'd liek to compare the bit with a pic of the results.
19:36:08 <jepler> Jymmm: I don't have a picture of it, but maybe I can put one online this weekend
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19:39:25 <k4ts> hello
19:40:44 <Jymmm> jepler: Ok, cool.  Maybe you can get the PN at the same time.
19:42:02 <Jymmm> jepler: See, I had done the research, even talked to the Sales Engineer, but was still reloctant to buy =) So you were the beta bitch in this case - But all they make are tools for (mostly) plastics.
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19:43:09 <Jymmm> jepler also what spindle RPM 
19:43:11 <Jymmm> ?
19:43:34 <jepler> Jymmm: 2400rpm, feedrate 13ipm
19:44:01 <Jymmm> jepler: eeeeeew, I can only go down to 8000RPM
19:44:09 <Jymmm> But they did say it SHOULD work.
19:44:25 <Jymmm> jepler no melt over at all?
19:44:43 <fenn> say jymmm how much does a spindle with 1/4" collet cost?
19:45:02 <cradek> I'm pretty sure it was 7200RPM?
19:45:04 <fenn> i mean so you wouldnt have to whine about your minimum speed anymore
19:45:34 <jepler> cradek: I wrote down 2400RPM.  Whatever it was, it was the innermost ring on that little disc
19:45:45 <Jymmm> fenn : I'm using a router, and I haven't seen one that goes THAT slow.
19:45:57 <cradek> ok maybe you're right - that's the .005" per tooth
19:47:07 <jepler> Jymmm: no, I didn't see any melted plastic.  Just tiny chips -- maybe 1/4 inch? -- everywhere
19:47:52 <Jymmm> jepler Very cool! No issues in curves or when it had to slow done in the corners?
19:47:59 <Jymmm> s/done/down/
19:49:24 <jepler> Jymmm: it was just a rectangle last night, but the corners were fine
19:49:28 <jepler> Jymmm: there's plenty of accel on cradek's mill
19:50:12 <Jymmm> jepler: Ah, ok.  whe I had it goin at 120IPM it was icky =)
19:51:34 <fenn> aw now this is just sad http://cgi.ebay.com/A111-G-CODE-DXF-cnc-mill-router-plasma-engraver-STAR_W0QQitemZ7586583367QQcategoryZ57122QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
19:51:37 <jepler> Jymmm: I bet the tool was 63-766
19:51:52 <jepler> Jymmm: 13ipm << 120ipm
19:52:29 <Jymmm> jepler: Well you're doin 2400RPM too, probably the right chipload
19:52:31 <jepler> Jymmm: the material was .092"-thick plexiglass (clear w/blue film) so I don't know if it's anything like what you are doing
19:53:01 <Jymmm> jepler if it had a blue film that's Extruded Acrylic.  Paper film is Cast Acrylic
19:53:49 <Jymmm> jepler Cast usually has a bit better results. Especially when laser engraded (just fyi)
19:54:00 <Jymmm> engraved
19:54:07 <jepler> Jymmm: this is what I'm doing with it: http://emergent.unpy.net/stippler
19:54:59 <jepler> Jymmm: the onsrud tool is just to cut out the plexiglass to the right size, nothing complicated.
19:55:26 <jepler> Jymmm: but an edge that transmits a lot of light is important
19:55:54 <Jymmm> jepler: Ah, I want to carve/engrave in acrylic, thus my research.
19:56:02 <Jymmm> jepler did you flame polish the edge?
19:56:57 <jepler> Jymmm: I don't remember what I did for the one on the website, the one I made last night, the edges were buffed with "jeweler's rouge"
19:57:57 <Jymmm> jepler If you have a clean, smooth, but fristed edge on acrylic, you can flame polish it so it's perfectly clear using a propane blortorch.
19:58:02 <Jymmm> frosted
19:59:30 <jepler> Jymmm: I'll have to try that sometime
19:59:32 <Jymmm> jepler : http://www.sdplastics.com/plex.html
19:59:57 <Jymmm> jepler: It's how you get a perfect finished edge, especial for light transfer
20:00:03 <Jymmm> especially
20:00:27 <jepler> thank goodness for "Adblock Background Image "
20:00:39 <jepler> oops .. that makes the page unreadable
20:00:40 <jepler> doh
20:00:50 <Jymmm> jepler: Practice on some scraps, and iirc read up on tempering acrylic too, or you'll end up with micro fractures.
20:01:44 <Jymmm> jepler fuck it, just VIEW SOURCE
20:01:53 <Jymmm> gawd that's annoying
20:03:33 <fenn> is tempering basically just baking the water out of it?
20:03:58 <Jymmm> fenn: No, it's more heating it to 120 deg F for 5 to 10 minutes.
20:04:13 <Jymmm> iirc
20:04:27 <Jymmm> the temp and times are varied depending on the material
20:04:45 <fenn> i'm not finding anything on google
20:11:25 <Jymmm> me neither, I have some stuff here in dead tree format
20:14:06 <fenn> well then could you explain it a little for the sake of posterity?
20:14:52 <Jymmm> You... want me... to explain properties of polymers?
20:15:40 <Jymmm> That's like asking Darwin about Gawd
20:16:48 <fenn> * fenn wonders whats burning..
20:17:04 <Jymmm> the bush
20:18:27 <Jymmm> when you thermoform or fabricate plastics (in this case acrylic) to prevent micro fractures in the material, it needs to be tempered to release the stress in the material itself.
20:19:01 <Jymmm> Unlike metals, tempering plastics doesn't take much effort or heat at all.
20:20:13 <Jymmm> If you want to play around... grab some acrylic scrap, and hit it with a upside down can of air.
20:28:04 <Jymmm> then let the piece sit in sun for a bit and warm up
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20:41:33 <dmessier> les around??
20:46:51 <anonimasu> hey dmessier how's stuff going?
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22:16:29 <niven.freenode.net> topic is: "Welcome to the Enhanced Machine Control forum - Support and development of a linux based CNC control. | Home:www.linuxcnc.org | Regular Developers' meetings every Sunday 14:00-18:00 GMT | wiki up @ http://wiki.linuxcnc.org | EMC usage map: http://www.frappr.com/emctheenhancedmachinecontroller"
22:16:29 <niven.freenode.net> Users on #emc: logger_aj roltek dmessier LawrenceG k4ts Jymmm fenn acemi giacus jtr_ CIA-17 SWP_Away paelscrit picnet les_w Ephexis A-L-P-H-A anonimasu @ChanServ ccjoe jepler cradek djb_rh ValarQ websys steves_logging robin bill2or3 alex_joni 
22:55:32 <roltek> roltek has quit
23:04:28 <k4ts> night
23:04:33 <k4ts> k4ts has quit
23:15:09 <anonimasu> ssh io23.net
23:15:12 <anonimasu> whoops
23:16:39 <Jymmm> * Jymmm pushes anonimasu to the OTHER window
23:19:32 <anonimasu> whats up?
23:19:55 <fenn> * fenn is reading about microcontrollers
23:23:15 <anonimasu> nice
23:23:42 <fenn> i'm drooling over the at91 series
23:23:58 <Jymmm> fenn get the butterfly, it's $20
23:24:09 <fenn> waiting forever for my avr's to arrive
23:24:26 <anonimasu> hm, the butterflys is just a demoboard..
23:24:30 <anonimasu> ;)
23:24:34 <anonimasu> well, gtg
23:24:38 <Jymmm> anonimasu and your point is?
23:24:38 <fenn> yeah avr can do plenty just on a breadboard
23:25:57 <fenn> http://www.robot119.com/market/bookpic/2004425162058663.gif
23:26:13 <fenn> is that weird or what
23:26:36 <Jymmm> fenn goatse
23:27:29 <A-L-P-H-A> nasty
23:38:58 <bill2or3> can anyone tell what this is?  http://tinyurl.com/e4hkg
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23:40:23 <fenn> how come you always post quicksrv forwarded links?
23:40:31 <Jymmm> * Jymmm dont do tiny urls
23:40:47 <Jymmm> too many XSS
23:41:09 <fenn> tinyurl doesnt bother me but i have quicksrv blocked out (cause they're spammers)
23:41:31 <Jymmm> I like to see where I'm goin befor eI get there
23:41:59 <bill2or3> just because the real url was like 150 characters
23:42:11 <bill2or3> http://cgi.ebay.com/3-Xilinx-Stepper-Cutter-403650-031P-2844-Parallel-Ports_W0QQitemZ8759300798QQcategoryZ56084QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting
23:42:24 <bill2or3> some sort of embedded controller, I think.
23:42:27 <fenn> i wonder if all tinyurls go throughh quicksrv now..
23:42:58 <fenn> ah damn thats really annoying
23:45:30 <fenn> probably a rack mount parallel port for server rooms
23:46:07 <fenn> like for putting printers on a network maybe?
23:46:17 <fenn> * fenn shrugs
23:47:52 <bill2or3> google finds nothing, I found it in a search for 'stepper'