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00:30:12 <Jacky^> night
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02:22:22 <fenn> * fenn is trying to figure out which HF catalog he saw the cheap bandsaw in
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03:53:44 <bill2or3> * bill2or3 buys steppers
03:54:00 <cradek> making your first machine?
03:59:29 <bill2or3> planning it anyway
03:59:41 <bill2or3> there were some cheeeeeep steppers on ebay, so I grabbed 3
04:00:43 <bill2or3> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7584171720
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04:06:01 <fenn> flash in an ebay auction is just going too far
04:09:06 <bill2or3> flash anywhere..
04:11:27 <cradek> too bad they're unipolar...  do you know how many wires they have?
04:12:34 <cradek> some unipolar motors have only 5 wires (instead of 6 or 8) which makes them unusable with bipolar drivers
04:12:34 <cradek> oh it says 8 leads, duh
04:12:55 <cradek> so forget I said anything
04:13:57 <cradek> 282 oz-in is nice and strong for a small mill
04:15:49 <bill2or3> yeah, should handle whatever I need.
04:16:10 <bill2or3> I think I'll do a small dremel-engraver first, just to get the hang of things, then convert my micro-mill
04:16:20 <cradek> you haven't bought the motors yet?  I still have a BIN button
04:16:30 <bill2or3> I did, he has lots
04:16:37 <cradek> hmm, it's tempting to push it
04:16:49 <bill2or3> <button> cliiickk meeeeee
04:17:25 <jepler> cradek: will your boards do 3A?
04:17:28 <cradek> for some reason I had it in my head that it was $39 for three motors
04:17:32 <cradek> hi jeff
04:17:41 <bill2or3> I'd have bought more if it was
04:18:04 <cradek> jepler: I'm not sure...
04:18:45 <cradek> yes 46V 4A
04:18:58 <cradek> looks like it would be a *great* match
04:19:01 <jepler> "2A each channel"
04:19:16 <bill2or3> what driver boards do you have?
04:19:17 <cradek> yeah you put them in parallel I think
04:19:20 <bill2or3> * bill2or3 needs some
04:19:32 <cradek> bill2or3: deluxe homemade L298
04:19:44 <cradek> http://timeguy.com/cradek/cnc
04:20:22 <cradek> hmm, some of this page is out of date...
04:20:23 <jepler> I wonder if this L298-based board is any good.  http://www.robotobjects.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=67
04:20:50 <jepler> cradek: you need a photo of that new power supply
04:20:54 <bill2or3> * bill2or3 looks
04:21:13 <cradek> jepler: it sure is cool, isn't it
04:21:49 <cradek> jepler: I don't see the L297 on that board...?
04:21:59 <jepler> cradek: no, I'm trying to figure out what the inputs are ...
04:23:22 <cradek> maybe it's the logic inputs to the 298
04:23:36 <cradek> it could be useful that way if you didn't need to chop
04:23:43 <cradek> a simple H bridge
04:23:45 <fenn> what's the 5v regulator for?
04:24:09 <cradek> good question
04:24:10 <jepler> cradek: I think that's right
04:24:24 <jepler> Is there a logic section to the L298 that needs +5v
04:24:24 <jepler> ?
04:24:37 <cradek> I don't think so
04:24:46 <jepler> PDF page 6 shows that the inputs are "I1", "I2" and "Enable"
04:25:21 <fenn> i'm thinking that board is for driving brushed dc motors
04:25:47 <jepler> er, that's 3 inputs per bridge, 6 inputs total
04:26:20 <jepler> probably not very useful for running steppers 
04:26:33 <jepler> 'night all
04:28:01 <fenn> boy that seems pretty expensive for a solder-it yourself kit
04:47:58 <bill2or3> neat clocks cradek...
04:48:22 <bill2or3> my boss @ work just finished a nixie clock (from a kit..)
04:50:40 <SWP_Away> there were a couple of fairly large lots of nixie tubes on eBay recently (may still be)
04:50:54 <SWP_Away> one of them was 72 tubes for around $20
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05:11:40 <bill2or3> wow, cheap
05:11:59 <bill2or3> * bill2or3 looks
05:13:02 <bill2or3> 12 tubs for $25
05:13:09 <bill2or3> tubes, too
05:16:33 <Jymmm> as in heater and grid type tubes?
05:17:21 <SWP_Away> yep
05:19:07 <SWP_Away> oops - it's $80: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7584289667
05:19:36 <SWP_Away> I think there was s different auction for less though
05:19:43 <SWP_Away> less $, not less tubes
05:22:10 <SWP_Away> and here are some real ones - not that segmented crap: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7583494459
05:28:36 <Jymmm> I haven't touched a tube in decades
05:28:49 <SWP_Away> just my CRTs ;)
05:29:18 <Jymmm> that's not a tube silly
05:29:33 <SWP_Away> I actually have 3 tubes in one device
05:29:49 <SWP_Away> (a 3-CRT RPTV :) )
05:31:28 <Jymmm> lies! all lies!
05:31:58 <SWP_Away> ah well - back to popping balloons with 0603 resistors
05:32:12 <Jymmm> better than killing viruses all day
05:32:25 <SWP_Away> I've been incubating viruses all day, actually
05:32:35 <SWP_Away> damned cold
05:32:57 <Jymmm> this is a in-the-wild virus, nasty lil fucker
05:33:22 <SWP_Away> what does it do?
05:34:22 <Jymmm> Via XSS exploit, exectues itself (somehow), parload unknown, but hides itself very very well.
05:34:51 <SWP_Away> bummer
05:42:05 <A-L-P-H-A> SWP_Away, stop pretending to be here.. go back to away. :P :)
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13:16:32 <Jymmm> Jymmm has changed the topic to: Welcome to the Enhanced Machine Control forum - Support and development of a linux based CNC control. | Home: www.linuxcnc.org | Regular Developers' meetings every Sunday 14:00-18:00 GMT | wiki up @ http://wiki.linuxcnc.org | EMC usage map: http://www.frappr.com/emctheenhancedmachinecontroller | Skype WiFi PHone http://tools.netgear.com/skype/
13:16:56 <Jacky^afk> hi Jymmm 
13:17:03 <Jymmm> morning Jacky^afk
13:17:03 <Jacky^afk> Jacky^afk is now known as Jacky^
13:17:36 <Jacky^> I bought a Skydapter .. have to try it yet :)
13:17:50 <Jymmm> ah, cool. 
13:18:03 <Jymmm> This one works on ANY WiFi connection
13:18:07 <Jacky^> it can use a tradictional cordless phone
13:18:21 <Jacky^> nice
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13:56:05 <k4ts> hello
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14:10:01 <Jacky^> mmm
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15:17:21 <CIA-17> 03jepler * 10emc2/tcl/bin/setupconfig.tcl: (log message trimmed)
15:17:21 <CIA-17> * Make the Escape key correspond to the "cancel"-type action, and the Enter key correspond to the "perform"-type action in most cases (When the "perform"-type action is not safe, Enter does nothing)
15:17:21 <CIA-17> * Display the button which is activated by "Enter" distinctive
15:17:21 <CIA-17> * Make the window manager close function behave like Escape
15:17:21 <CIA-17> * Place keyboard focus on the first item
15:17:24 <CIA-17> * Disable some buttons when no listbox item is selected yet
15:17:26 <CIA-17> * Make the description area keyboard scrollable
15:37:38 <Jacky^> alex_joni: is Puppy available as Live cd ?
15:38:08 <Jacky^> what you used to build it ?
15:38:25 <CIA-17> 03rayhenry * 10emc2/configs/demo_step_cl/demo_step_cl.ini: added STEPGEN_MAXVEL = 1.4
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15:43:53 <alex_joni> Jacky^: it's all in the wiki
15:44:16 <Jacky^> ty, looking ..
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16:22:13 <jepler> cradek: this notice that my emc-commits message is being held says that it came from my 'jepler@sourceforge' address.  Maybe you have to add that to a whitelist or something?
16:22:37 <jepler> cradek: (this is for my commit of setupconfig.tcl)
16:27:44 <cradek> jepler: I think the fix is for you to subscribe to -commit as @sourceforge and then point @sourceforge to your real email
16:28:43 <cradek> (you've probably already done the latter)
16:28:49 <jepler> yes
16:29:53 <cradek> I ok'd your commit message
16:30:05 <cradek> but I don't see any way to fix the problem other than you changing your subscription.
16:30:42 <cradek> I can do that for you - do you want me to?
16:31:37 <jepler> no, i'll do it
16:39:54 <jepler> maybe that's solved now
16:45:06 <cradek> http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-commit
16:45:24 <cradek> I added a warning on this page to help the next guy do it right the first time
16:45:37 <cradek> because I had the same problem when I started committing
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17:24:15 <CIA-17> 03jepler * 10emc2/ (emc2-wizard.gif tcl/bin/setupconfig.tcl): 
17:24:15 <CIA-17> add left-hand-side image to setupconfig screens (emc2-wizard.gif)
17:24:15 <CIA-17> tweak layout to show configs and descriptions side by side
17:24:15 <CIA-17> keep the window size the same all the time
17:24:15 <CIA-17> add the ability to disable buttons when text has not been entered
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17:34:02 <cradek> jepler: that's looking great
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17:35:22 <CIA-17> 03jepler * 10emc2/tcl/bin/setupconfig.tcl: 
17:35:23 <CIA-17> enforce character set for new config names
17:35:23 <CIA-17> fix for earlier "require nonempty entry" change
17:35:23 <CIA-17> fix the new config name when you back up to that step (earlier, it would be
17:35:23 <CIA-17> repeated)
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18:42:10 <bill20r3> double awesome --> http://www.taomc.com/
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18:49:21 <rayh> You go, jepler: 
19:06:07 <jepler> rayh: you like the changes?
19:06:16 <jepler> I'm pleased to hear it.
19:06:20 <rayh> You bet.
19:10:36 <alex_joni> * alex_joni is back
19:17:29 <CIA-17> 03jepler * 10emc2/tcl/bin/setupconfig.tcl: 
19:17:29 <CIA-17> make the logo stick to all the pages by creating it outside of $top, not by recreating it each time
19:17:29 <CIA-17> make the window a bit wider so that the scrollbar for descriptions shows
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19:23:17 <bill20r3> anyone ever used a flatbed scanner as a base for a small cnc engraving machine?
19:23:23 <bill20r3> * bill20r3 wonders if that'd work.
19:27:04 <CIA-17> 03jepler * 10emc2/tcl/bin/setupconfig.tcl: 
19:27:04 <CIA-17> buttons look better when they're uniformly sized. The added code makes them
19:27:04 <CIA-17> 8 average-character-widths wide, unless the label won't fit in that much space.
19:29:38 <cradek> jepler: I bet the edit/backup/restore/delete/new/cancel screen is going to suck in German
19:29:56 <jepler> cradek: alex points out that axis 1.1.1 doesn't work on emc2 HEAD due to my rs274.o -> librs274.a change in emc2
19:30:06 <cradek> uh-oh
19:30:16 <alex_joni> and any older axis releases aswell
19:30:31 <alex_joni> jepler: is there any way to build them both?
19:30:41 <jepler> alex_joni: true, though I don't have sympathy for anybody who's upgrading emc2 but won't upgrade to the latest release of axis
19:30:42 <alex_joni> rs274.o and librs274.a
19:30:55 <jepler> alex_joni: sure could build both
19:31:11 <alex_joni> at least for a while.. but that's up to you I guess
19:31:13 <cradek> time marches inexorably forward
19:33:03 <CIA-17> 03jepler * 10emc2/src/emc/rs274ngc/Makefile: build rs274.o again so that axis 1.1.1 will compile against emc2 HEAD
19:33:45 <cradek> we could also make another release from the maintenance branch.
19:34:08 <alex_joni> cradek: you still have a 1.1 release (I think that's the latest stable?)
19:34:11 <alex_joni> or is it 1.1.1 ?
19:34:20 <jepler> alex_joni: 1.1.1  is the latest stable version
19:35:03 <alex_joni> ok ;)
19:35:09 <alex_joni> so we need to have that working ..
19:35:23 <jepler> cradek: and do what in 1.1.2?  detect librs274.a vs rs274.o and work either way?  Or use librs274.a exclusively when building for emc2?
19:35:37 <alex_joni> use librs274.a
19:36:01 <cradek> I don't know - either
19:36:25 <cradek> probably alex is right
19:36:35 <cradek> I don't care if it doesn't work with older emc2 versions
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19:39:30 <rayh> "inexorably" I love pretty words.
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19:40:07 <Jacky^> hi rayh 
19:40:29 <rayh> Hi Jacky^ 
19:44:02 <cradek> any word with an x in it rolls beautifully off the tongue
19:44:51 <SWPadnos> that's inexplicably true
19:45:20 <jepler> alex_joni: http://unpy.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/axis/setup.py.diff?r1=1.29.2.5;r2=1.29.2.6
19:45:24 <jepler> axis axis axis
19:45:45 <jepler> demultiplex
19:45:51 <SWPadnos> haxxorz
19:48:41 <cradek> suxxorz
19:49:06 <SWPadnos> XXX
19:49:37 <SWPadnos> (or, as Terry Pratchett spells it, "Ecks Ecks Ecks")
19:50:11 <alex_joni> eggs
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20:20:44 <alex_joni> bonne soir
20:20:58 <Jacky^> hello 
20:21:02 <dmessier> salut all
20:21:12 <alex_joni> ca va?
20:21:15 <Jacky^> telefunken
20:21:35 <Jacky^> yesterday has joioned telefunken ..
20:21:36 <dmessier> ehhh.... pas
20:22:12 <alex_joni> pas? mais .. pour quois?
20:22:14 <Jacky^> alex_joni: ho it seem to you this : http://ibuild.livecd.net/
20:22:38 <Jacky^> to build a customized distro with RT kernel
20:22:56 <Jacky^> wonder if is it possible..
20:22:59 <dmessier> le travaille... de la marde
20:23:00 <alex_joni> if I would build a custom live distro I'd look at kubuntu
20:23:30 <alex_joni> oh, travaille.. ici il est le weekend ;)
20:23:58 <alex_joni> vendredi soir ..
20:24:04 <Jacky^> uhm, I would  have a Debian distro
20:24:09 <dmessier> ici aussi... im carrying it come....
20:24:12 <alex_joni> ubuntu is deb based
20:24:29 <dmessier> home.. sorry
20:24:31 <Jacky^> but isnt Debian :(
20:24:36 <SWPadnos> and it has a brown background - very important
20:24:40 <SWPadnos> it is debian based
20:24:42 <alex_joni> yeah :D
20:25:02 <Jacky^> I know it is based
20:25:12 <Jacky^> as knoppix or morphix too
20:25:17 <SWPadnos> most packages from Debian install unmodified on Ubuntu
20:25:17 <Jacky^> mephis
20:25:22 <SWPadnos> mepis
20:25:29 <SWPadnos> (I like that one as well)
20:25:32 <Jacky^> sorry, yeah
20:25:44 <Jacky^> I would like a pure Sarge
20:26:13 <SWPadnos> pure sarge doesn't have RT :)
20:26:17 <alex_joni> nor live
20:26:30 <SWPadnos> nor emc
20:26:43 <Jacky^> why ? ubuntu  have it ?
20:26:50 <skunkworks> skunkworks has quit
20:26:53 <SWPadnos> no, but it's not pure ;)
20:26:56 <alex_joni> well.. it's got a live
20:27:01 <alex_joni> and RT
20:27:06 <rayh> I have a pure sarge here as my net server.
20:27:28 <alex_joni> yeah, sarge is ok for servers
20:28:07 <alex_joni> more than ok
20:28:21 <Jacky^> I found its ok for wk too
20:28:46 <Jacky^> in some case ppeoples use to mix sarge-sid
20:28:55 <Jacky^> setting pin priority
20:29:06 <Jacky^> I never tried to mix them ..
20:29:23 <Jacky^> I guess its not right at all 
20:29:30 <rayh> I did once.  DISASTER!
20:29:40 <Jacky^> yeah ..
20:29:47 <rayh> You've really got to know what you are doing.
20:30:43 <SWPadnos> which isn't a requirement we want for potential emc users
20:32:20 <rayh> No we want to meet the "Aunt Tillie" test.
20:32:23 <Jacky^> im looking at this howto http://wiki.livecd.net/livecd/IbuildHowto
20:32:35 <Jacky^> it seems neat enough
20:32:47 <Jacky^> if not outdated
20:33:00 <cradek> rayh: where is the list of aunt tillie criteria?
20:33:06 <cradek> rayh: (I'm serious)
20:33:31 <rayh> I saw one the other day that looked good but used a 2.2 kernel and rt09j still
20:33:38 <SWPadnos> I don't think there is one - it's like the "War on Terror"
20:33:47 <cradek> rayh: can she follow instructions that say what to click on?  can she type commands at the shell?
20:33:48 <SWPadnos> (ie, you can't tell when you're done)
20:33:52 <rayh> Um.  It was a comment from Eric Raymond a
20:34:12 <rayh> while ago know.  
20:34:17 <rayh> * rayh looks back.
20:34:22 <cradek> I understand it was probably just in passing
20:34:43 <cradek> but it might be helpful to talk about what it means
20:35:14 <SWPadnos> http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cups-horror.html
20:36:13 <SWPadnos> hmmm:  http://openusability.org/
20:36:18 <cradek> in all seriousness I'm working on some stuff where I want to know "how easy is easy enough"
20:36:48 <Jacky^> computer arent easy
20:37:12 <rayh> Big batch on the way.
20:37:17 <Jacky^> who think all can be simple for all its wrong
20:37:17 <rayh> In 2003, there is a deep ambivalence in our attitude — a tension between elitism and missionary populism. We want to reach and convert the 92% of the world for whom computing means games and multimedia and glossy GUI interfaces and (at their most technical) light email and word processing and spreadsheets. We are spending major effort on projects like GNOME and KDE designed to give Unix a pretty face. But we are still elitists at heart, deeply
20:37:17 <rayh> reluctant and in many cases unable to identify with or listen to the needs of the Aunt Tillies of the world.
20:37:43 <rayh> To non-technical end users, the software we build tends to be either bewildering and incomprehensible, or clumsy and condescending, or both at the same time. Even when we try to do the user-friendliness thing as earnestly as possible, we're woefully inconsistent at it. Many of the attitudes and reflexes we've inherited from old-school Unix are just wrong for the job. Even when we want to listen to and help Aunt Tillie, we don't know how — we
20:37:44 <rayh> project our categories and our concerns onto her and give her ‘solutions’ that she finds as daunting as her problems.
20:38:51 <rayh> Our greatest challenge as a culture is whether we can outgrow the assumptions that have served us so well — whether we can acknowledge, not merely intellectually but in the sinew of daily practice, that the Macintosh people have a point. Their point is made in more general, less Mac-specific way in The Inmates Are Running the Asylum [Cooper], an insightful and argumentative book about what its author calls interaction design that (despite
20:38:51 <rayh> occasional crotchets) contains a good deal of hard truth that every Unix programmer ought to know.
20:40:00 <rayh> copied from E Raymond http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/taoup/html/ch20s05.html
20:40:48 <jepler> I think he means 'know your audience'
20:40:53 <cradek> ok, I understand where it came from now, bu tthat doesn't help me answer my question.  I guess maybe it's possible that it's unanswerable.
20:41:45 <rayh> The boundaries between are fuzzy in the kind of thing we do.
20:41:48 <cradek> free software folks often don't have the luxury of knowing their audience.  The audience we see (talking about us emc folks now) is the audience who pops into irc.
20:42:11 <cradek> I'm sure jon elson sees a different audience
20:42:20 <cradek> ray might see yet another one
20:42:44 <jepler> ESR also wrote that free software is successful because people write software that scratches their own itches, not the itches of hypothetical dense or naive users.
20:43:15 <jepler> it depends what the goal of EMC is, whether an "Aunt Tillie Test" is relevant
20:43:59 <rayh> Raymond's point of origin with the tillie test was a Mac conference he attended.
20:44:12 <SWPadnos> somebody who knows what a machine is, and how to use it (G-code, etc) shouldn't have to figure out what was going through the emc developer's mind when the GUI was written
20:44:23 <rayh> He said he was listening to programmers who were design oriented
20:44:39 <SWPadnos> the UI shouldn't be a barrier to use of the machine, it should be an "enabler"
20:44:55 <SWPadnos> (what that means varies from user to user though)
20:46:04 <rayh> I know a lot of "job shop floor" guys who would really like emc to look like an old fanuc.
20:46:12 <jepler> I think that we had an aunt-tillie-like point of view when designing axis.  We wanted it to look like other desktop applications, and allow someone using it to make good guesses at what each element of the screen does (with text, tooltips, etc)
20:46:28 <jepler> I've never seen these "old fauncs" you speak of
20:46:30 <rayh> can you say curses and ncurses
20:46:45 <SWPadnos> uhh - keystick?
20:46:50 <SWPadnos> did I pronounce that right?
20:46:55 <jepler> but just as making an audio playing program look like an old AM radio is a bad idea, making modern software look like an old DRO is probably a bad idea
20:46:59 <rayh> yup
20:47:52 <rayh> IMO our "operator" advantage is gained by having many different types of displays.
20:48:07 <cradek> ten years ago at work I would sometimes run into people who had never used a computer before (we were selling them their first one.)  Today, I don't see that anymore.  Everyone brings some knowledge about GUIs with them today.
20:48:20 <djb_rh> I'd like a display that is touchscreen friendly
20:48:33 <SWPadnos> ding ding!
20:48:48 <SWPadnos> axis is pretty good, once cradek straightens you out ;)
20:48:49 <cradek> one of my goals in AXIS was to use that knowledge, however small, to allow someone to walk up to AXIS and use it.
20:48:53 <alex_joni> djb_rh: maybe if you & SWP bug cradek enough he'll make axis ok ;)
20:49:01 <rayh> I watch in wonder at an operator that can run a Mazak.
20:49:48 <cradek> rayh: I bet your Mazak operator certainly comes with a different knowledge base.  Is it possible he has never used a modern computer?
20:50:19 <rayh> phone brb
20:50:33 <alex_joni> cradek: I often watch machine operators that have no clue what they are doing..
20:50:37 <alex_joni> they are using patterns
20:50:55 <SWPadnos> "using a modern computer" means different things to different people as well
20:51:02 <alex_joni> they just KNOW they need to push some certain combination of keys/buttons to make it work
20:51:33 <SWPadnos> I know a good hardware designer that made his first computer in High School (TRS-80 compatible, even), but didn't know that software was installed on his Windows 98 machine because there was no icon on the desktop
20:51:35 <cradek> SWPadnos: I'm talking about how to use a mouse, what scrollbars do, how the File menu works, etc.
20:51:57 <SWPadnos> ... where to look for new programs ...
20:52:06 <djb_rh> scrollbars are hard on a touchscreen
20:52:09 <djb_rh> they're usually too small
20:52:17 <SWPadnos> you need a drag interface, no matter what
20:52:35 <SWPadnos> there are up and down buttons though, so tapping can also work
20:53:32 <djb_rh> I need a talented programmer to write me a touchscreen alarm clock program
20:53:38 <djb_rh> but that's probably off topic.  :)
20:53:47 <SWPadnos> yep
20:54:04 <djb_rh> well, if i put a mini-mill in the bedroom...  ;)
20:54:05 <SWPadnos> (not that that usually matters here)
20:55:02 <djb_rh> shit, I think I finally got power to my big mill yesterday
20:55:10 <djb_rh> I gotta turn it on and see if it does anything
20:55:32 <SWPadnos> well - what are you doing here then? ;)
20:55:42 <djb_rh> waiting for a fscking phone call
20:55:44 <djb_rh> *sigh*
20:56:01 <djb_rh> one of these days I'm gonna have everythign converted to VOIP and have an 802.11 phone
20:56:02 <alex_joni> *ring*
20:56:05 <djb_rh> one of these days
20:56:14 <alex_joni> *ring-ring*
20:57:58 <djb_rh> where is Jymmm when I need to give him crap?
20:58:20 <djb_rh> "I've never seen a PC BIOS that couldn't be reset using a jumper or by removing a battery"
20:58:21 <djb_rh> hah!
20:58:32 <djb_rh> this system has FLASH for BIOS
20:58:40 <alex_joni> they all do
20:58:47 <alex_joni> but the passwd isn't in flash
20:59:07 <djb_rh> everything on these two SBCs I have is
20:59:20 <djb_rh> I was able to crack the passwd, but I could *not* reset it
20:59:31 <djb_rh> well, I could once I cracked it, but you know what I mean
21:00:13 <djb_rh> and that's not entirely off topic, since they are gonna be BDI machines
21:04:43 <alex_joni> Award?
21:05:34 <SWPadnos> it makes sense for an embeded / industrial board to store the password in a non-volatile place.  that prevents unauhorized people from making changes (as you noticed)
21:05:52 <SWPadnos> if anyone can just reset CMOS and change the password, it's not really that useful
21:06:06 <dmessier> did you pull the bios chip out of socket and cycle...??
21:15:40 <SWPadnos> that doesn't help with flash
21:16:22 <alex_joni> sure, you just need to expose it to UV, get some static (about 10-20kV should do it) across the pins
21:16:28 <alex_joni> and it should be good as new :D
21:16:47 <SWPadnos> alternatively, you could put it in a burner, and re-flash it ;)
21:16:59 <djb_rh> I went through all this with Jymmm...I tried every trick in the book.  These SBCs are different beasts in some ways as they have disk-on-chip ports, solder pads for additional FLASH chips to just solder on, etc, etc
21:17:07 <SWPadnos> X-rays help, BTW - the plastic is UV opaque
21:17:22 <djb_rh> fortunately it wasn't hard to make a FreeDOS boot floppy, put a crack util on it, boot, and go
21:17:39 <djb_rh> in fact, once you have the image laying around, that's easier than opening a case to move a jumper
21:17:41 <alex_joni> djb_rh: what kind of BIOS?
21:17:46 <djb_rh> Award
21:17:56 <alex_joni> did you try common passphrases?
21:18:02 <djb_rh> tried them all
21:18:12 <alex_joni> I think I remember some for Award, from way back..
21:18:13 <rayh> back -- we done with tillie for now?
21:18:21 <alex_joni> she's knitting..
21:18:23 <SWPadnos> I wonder what NewEgg means by "Refurbished" when talking about a CPU ...
21:18:25 <djb_rh> yeah, I found some pretty big lists of them
21:18:36 <djb_rh> SWPadnos: taped the box back closed
21:18:38 <djb_rh> :)
21:18:48 <SWPadnos> heh, and no thermal putty on the cooler
21:18:50 <cradek> rayh: I decided there's no real answer for my question.
21:19:05 <alex_joni> * alex_joni whispers..
21:19:14 <alex_joni> actually there is no real Aunt tillie..
21:19:14 <skunkworks> skunkworks has joined #emc
21:19:30 <cradek> I know
21:19:38 <alex_joni> cradek: joke aside, what were you thinking of?
21:19:43 <SWPadnos> cradek, I think it's a mindset.  look at the task at hand, and try to think about how you would try to accomplish it, knowing nothing about the software (but knowing what you're trying to do)
21:19:47 <rayh> I'm of the opinion that over time we will draw some lines that make sense to us and to most of our users.
21:20:11 <djb_rh> you guys just talking about usability issues in general?
21:20:42 <cradek> well I was asking about one specific thing
21:20:48 <SWPadnos> you can't please everyone - some machine operator from the '80s will think "I'm trying to load a program - where's the 'program' menu?"
21:20:54 <djb_rh> Nat Friedman had a pretty good article in a recent _Linux Journal_ about software usability testing
21:21:04 <SWPadnos> when it's been the "file" menu for the last 10-15 years
21:21:05 <djb_rh> the Novell guys are doing some work in that area
21:21:16 <cradek> say I have a part of emc that I'm working on.  I want to determine whether it passes the Tillie test.  What do I do to find out?
21:21:37 <djb_rh> simple but effective stuff like using a webcam to watch users while recording what is going on the screen
21:21:39 <SWPadnos> there are a few things at the bottom of the ESR page I linked to
21:21:49 <SWPadnos> 1) make sure there are no dead ends
21:21:57 <cradek> if that's code-speak for "make it as dumb as possible because users are morons" then I'm not interested
21:22:00 <alex_joni> cradek: get some really newbie users to try it
21:22:00 <SWPadnos> (not as applicable in a non-wizard app)
21:22:03 <cradek> because I don't think that's true (or good practice)
21:22:06 <SWPadnos> no, it's not
21:22:44 <djb_rh> cradek: not at all...just helps you identify common stumbling points
21:23:06 <SWPadnos> What does my software look like to a non-technical user who has never seen it before?
21:23:07 <SWPadnos> Is there any screen in my GUI that is a dead end, without giving guidance further into the system?
21:23:09 <SWPadnos> The requirement that end-users read documentation is a sign of UI design failure. Is my UI design a failure?
21:23:11 <SWPadnos> For technical tasks that do require documentation, do they fail to mention critical defaults?
21:23:12 <SWPadnos> Does my project welcome and respond to usability feedback from non-expert users?
21:23:13 <rayh> "no dead ends" sounds reasonable to me.
21:23:14 <SWPadnos> And, most importantly of all...do I allow my users the precious luxury of ignorance?
21:23:15 <SWPadnos> from ESR
21:23:31 <cradek> so maybe he assumes the same things I do
21:23:33 <SWPadnos>     * Can you gracefully and easily duplicate your tools and configuration for a similar installation? Is it documented? (RedHat and CUPS is no help with this, either, most of the print-drivers wend their way from the foomatic and other tools into the CUPS setups without a lot of hint of how it works.) [For cups, the answer is "you can duplicate it easily, but it's a *secret*"! Every...
21:23:35 <SWPadnos>     * Are there settings you can do from the command line or hand-editing config files that cannot be done from the GUI? Are they documented anywhere? Does using the GUI erase these settings? (The answer for CUPS is "Yes, you can flush all sorts of hand-edited things this way!". This was an incredible problem for NeXT stations and remains a big freeware GUI problem, although most try harder...
21:23:36 <SWPadnos> And here are some more design rules, from Nico Kadel-Garcia:
21:23:38 <SWPadnos> ...configuration should be built and recompiled from the source tarball! What are you, a n00b?]
21:23:40 <SWPadnos>     * Is installing this toolset likely to replace or break something already in place (such as LPD based printing packages)? If so, explain how to gracefully do the transition.
21:23:41 <SWPadnos> ...to address this. Webmin is an excellent example of how to do it right in most cases!)
21:23:43 <SWPadnos>     * Are all your important features mentioned? The automatic flat text->Postscript conversion is one such feature, and despite its presence in the tarball tools and default use the CUPS claim it's not theirs and not their problem.
21:23:49 <rayh> You ever started up a package and got shunted someplace you had no idea how to get back.
21:23:57 <SWPadnos> obviously, this was from a CUPS discussion ;)
21:24:09 <SWPadnos> yes - emc and the config manager ;)
21:24:21 <rayh> I know I'm there when I right click on the desktop and select run command xkill
21:25:22 <rayh> I've often thought of putting an xkill icon on my desktop only I wouldn't know how to get to it.
21:25:52 <SWPadnos> heh "bind crtl-alt-rightmouse xkill"  (or something like that)
21:27:32 <SWPadnos> so cradek - did that first bunch of guidelines make sense?  (the second was pretty CUPS-specific)
21:33:44 <rayh> IMO the larger a pool of successful users we have the better.
21:33:59 <SWPadnos> and the smaller the pool of unsiccessful users
21:35:02 <rayh> Yes.  I got a call from a fellow's wife.  Right up front she said he is a school dropout.
21:35:10 <rayh> I asked I
21:35:12 <rayh> q
21:35:22 <rayh> she said 60 something
21:35:41 <rayh> but he's good with tools and likes to build things.
21:35:54 <rayh> She asked if I'd have the patience to help.
21:35:59 <rayh> I said sure.
21:36:19 <SWPadnos> were you correct? ;)
21:36:30 <rayh> So she asked him to call -- not knowing that she had set it up.
21:36:36 <rayh> We got him going.  
21:36:58 <SWPadnos> cool
21:37:15 <rayh> I don't know quite how you quantify the ability to do what we do.
21:38:07 <rayh> or just who out be be considered outside the ability ability
21:38:14 <SWPadnos> one answer (to the usability question) is that you release code that you think wil lbe OK, and then hope that people will tell you if they don't like it, rather than just picking a different program
21:38:34 <SWPadnos> the more feedback (from actual non-programmer-type users) the better
21:41:08 <rayh> Exactly.  And this irc makes that easier.  I remember during both trips to the Mazak, saying to myself, "I'll never get the hang of this HAL stuff."  
21:43:16 <rayh> Mostly it was because I was sitting next to THE guru.
21:43:23 <SWPadnos> that does help ;)
21:43:38 <SWPadnos> plus it's kind of like connecting wires
21:43:47 <SWPadnos> which I gather you've done before
21:44:23 <rayh> No in fact jmk made the problem worse,  No reflections on his abilities.
21:44:52 <rayh> He was so much faster in getting to solutions that it intimidated me.
21:45:33 <rayh> He'd whack away at the keyboard for a few and it would do exactly what I thought it ought to.
21:45:58 <rayh> I'd have to excuse myself and go sit on the pot for a few and think
21:46:24 <SWPadnos> TMI
21:46:57 <rayh> It's not that I'm stupid.  It's that it is a BIG thing and you have to get your head around all of it at once in order to see how a part of it works.
21:47:49 <rayh> I nearly cried when he left.  I was that dependent.
21:47:52 <SWPadnos> yeah.  there's a barrier to entry, but it's pretty easy once you "get it"
21:48:04 <rayh> But as I usually do, I sat down and broke it.
21:48:18 <SWPadnos> fixing things again is a good way to learn about them
21:48:23 <rayh> figured out what was wrong. and went on.
21:48:30 <rayh> Exactly.  
21:48:50 <rayh> Some of the folk who whine about it not being "tillie" compatable enough
21:48:59 <rayh> are just that whiners.
21:49:19 <SWPadnos> I don't have any idea who you might be talking about ;)
21:49:30 <rayh> Others just need coaxing.
21:56:58 <alex_joni> rayh: think I recall your confrontation with HAL ;)
21:57:28 <rayh> It nearly hammered me into the ground.
21:57:42 <alex_joni> heh, but now you should really laugh at HAL
21:57:49 <alex_joni> it's not that complicated
21:58:24 <alex_joni> maybe laught at is a bit too much ;)
21:58:27 <rayh> true at the pin ->sig->pin level but 
21:58:39 <alex_joni> well.. userlevel is enough
21:58:51 <rayh> at the complete system level it can still be a daunting task.
21:59:31 <rayh> If I had not encountered the recent error message when I ttried to run demo_step_cl
22:00:10 <rayh> that said something was missing, I'd have just said o s$%t
22:01:07 <rayh> Because when you look at the total of the sigs, params, pins, and clp that make it up
22:01:18 <websys> hello ray
22:01:31 <rayh> it is a bit thing.  And all it does is watch estop and run an intermittent lube.
22:01:36 <rayh> Hi Bob.
22:01:43 <rayh> Dave called.
22:02:04 <websys> quickie question - can EMC be configured to run indiagnostic mode without steppers/servos?
22:02:21 <alex_joni> what's indiagnostic mode?
22:02:33 <websys> in test mode 
22:02:34 <alex_joni> there is a sim mode (simulator)
22:02:38 <rayh> EMC(1), the bdi has a sim mode that does not require rt.
22:02:46 <websys> ok
22:02:51 <alex_joni> right, and emc2 has a RT sim mode
22:02:55 <rayh> I tend to run steppers with the stepper power off.
22:03:09 <alex_joni> although a non-RT sim mode should be done...
22:03:20 <websys> just need a way to test my output
22:03:29 <k4ts> k4ts has joined #emc
22:03:38 <rayh> Okay.  Have you got a BDI box there?
22:03:47 <cradek> websys: what test are you trying to do?
22:04:03 <k4ts> hello
22:04:06 <k4ts> rayh: 
22:04:10 <websys> Dave was saying something about cutter-comp requiring acute angle lead-in - checked the docs and couldn't find anything like that
22:04:12 <rayh> caio
22:04:13 <k4ts> hi cradek 
22:04:18 <k4ts> ah ah
22:04:20 <k4ts> caiooooo
22:04:37 <Jacky^> caio giulio cesare :)
22:05:03 <jepler> websys: if you have a bdi4.30 or 4.38, then select the axis front-end in one of the stepper configs and run it with nothing attached to the parallel port.
22:05:11 <jepler> websys: you can load your file and look at the preview and backplots
22:05:16 <Jacky^> k4ts: it seems you failed teaching to rayh !
22:05:42 <websys> thanks - will try that
22:05:43 <jepler> e.g., mill_inch_freq.ini
22:06:15 <_tarzan_> _tarzan_ has quit
22:06:20 <rayh> websys: Yes.  EMC wants to go around the outside of a corner when it starts comp.
22:06:49 <rayh> Or you can start comp on an arc that is tangent to the line you want it to travel along.
22:06:50 <websys> ? so the comp documentation is wrong?
22:07:08 <rayh> darn I wrote a lot of that.
22:07:13 <websys> lol
22:07:31 <rayh> Let's say you want to go around a square or rectangle.
22:07:36 <rayh> Outside.
22:07:42 <websys> the example given is a line tangent to the starting line
22:08:13 <rayh> extended beyond the start point.
22:08:19 <websys> i.e. coincident
22:09:38 <rayh> EMC thinks it will gouge if it travels into a surface rather than round a corner at the start of the surface.
22:11:03 <websys> so a line tanto a circle tanto the contour would fail?
22:11:26 <websys> if I install G41 on the starting line?
22:12:16 <rayh> Say the tool center was at x-1 y0
22:12:35 <rayh> and the circle started at x0 y0 
22:12:50 <rayh> It should do the entry move as g41 x0 y0
22:13:01 <rayh> and go on around the circle.
22:13:40 <websys> but you can't start on a line?
22:13:54 <rayh> In the middle of a line, no
22:14:10 <rayh> You could create an imaginary point there.
22:14:24 <rayh> go around that point, then drop z and cut.
22:14:44 <rayh> Or arc into a tangent with the line.
22:15:00 <rayh> That would look like the burn start moves on a flame table
22:15:44 <logger_aj> logger_aj has joined #emc
22:15:44 <clarke.freenode.net> topic is: Welcome to the Enhanced Machine Control forum - Support and development of a linux based CNC control. | Home: www.linuxcnc.org | Regular Developers' meetings every Sunday 14:00-18:00 GMT | wiki up @ http://wiki.linuxcnc.org | EMC usage map: http://www.frappr.com/emctheenhancedmachinecontroller | Skype WiFi PHone http://tools.netgear.com/skype/
22:15:44 <clarke.freenode.net> Users on #emc: logger_aj k4ts skunkworks dmessier Jacky^ picnet djb_rh acemi rayh bill2or3 CIA-17 Telefunken ccjoe A-L-P-H-A SWPadnos alex_joni jepler bill20r3 LawrenceG thalx cradek jtr_ robin steves_logging websys ValarQ @ChanServ 
22:15:48 <websys> ok - dave should be able to use my standard lead tools then
22:16:31 <rayh> Good luck.  I told dave to make a wiki page on what he discovers that works for him.
22:20:18 <rayh> Hey Jacky^ How did k4ts fail teaching.
22:21:14 <Jacky^> she failed teaching IT to you :)
22:21:30 <Jacky^> dunno how she did :/
22:21:45 <Jacky^> bad student or bad teacher 
22:21:50 <Jacky^> :D
22:22:03 <rayh> The problem is my use of caio?
22:22:09 <Jacky^> yeah :)
22:22:21 <rayh> That is a good by.
22:22:22 <k4ts> rayh: pizza
22:22:26 <k4ts> ih ih
22:22:33 <rayh> I got that one.
22:23:39 <Jacky^> could be nice to get the real recipe of the pizza maded in naples
22:24:02 <Jacky^> may k4ts could found it
22:24:29 <k4ts> rayh:   you write word for me in italinano
22:25:23 <rayh> um -- not well in italinano
22:26:09 <SWPadnos> espresso ;)
22:26:16 <k4ts> rayh:  real recipe for picca?
22:26:30 <k4ts> en englpizza
22:26:43 <k4ts> pizza
22:27:03 <rayh> US pizza is nothing like real, as I understand it.
22:28:11 <Jacky^> rayh: also in IT is the same
22:28:21 <alex_joni> no pizza is like the one in Napoli ;)
22:28:22 <skunkworks> skunkworks has quit
22:28:29 <Jacky^> the only place where pizza is really good is in naples
22:29:12 <rayh> I've been to three US pizza parlors that I thought were good.
22:29:18 <Jacky^> or, others pizeria but with napoletan peoples doing the pizza
22:29:25 <alex_joni> Jacky^: not really
22:29:36 <alex_joni> usually they start to make pizza like the customers want it
22:29:47 <alex_joni> but those customers never tasted an original pizza
22:29:52 <Jacky^> alex_joni: im 37 years old, I can assure you, I eat pizza everywhere ..
22:29:54 <alex_joni> with only tomatoes on it ..
22:29:56 <alex_joni> yummm
22:30:05 <rayh> Lincoln Nebraska, Eugene/Springfield Oregon, and Napa California
22:30:17 <Jacky^> i also tried italian restaurant in LA years ago ..
22:30:20 <Jacky^> nothing to do
22:30:30 <Jacky^> it seems the place !
22:30:32 <alex_joni> not those mortadella, salami, mushrooms, eggs, bacon, peperonni stuff
22:30:34 <Jacky^> dunno why
22:30:54 <alex_joni> the original pizza, back when there were 2 types available
22:31:00 <alex_joni> tomato and tomato & cheese
22:31:10 <alex_joni> for the real wealthy fishermen ;)
22:31:10 <Jacky^> to be honest before came back here we eat some pizza with k4ts
22:31:18 <Jacky^> not good at all in the winter
22:31:39 <Jacky^> but there are a lots of sectrets to get a good pizza
22:31:50 <Jacky^> its not simple how it seem
22:31:53 <rayh> IMO making a good pizza is a very difficult thing.
22:32:09 <Jacky^> my sister do it any week
22:32:10 <alex_joni> rayh: they even got a university near naples theaching that, iirc
22:32:14 <Jacky^> since many years
22:32:29 <rayh> * rayh needs to apprentice
22:33:04 <Jacky^> some food need to be eat in the place where it born
22:33:09 <Jacky^> and some drink too
22:33:25 <rayh> Yep.
22:33:47 <Jacky^> wine is sensible to when moving from a place to another
22:33:55 <Jacky^> especially if is 'homemade'
22:34:01 <rayh> * rayh must get back to refactoring halconfig.
22:34:29 <k4ts> 500 grammi di farina = flour
22:34:38 <Jacky^> but theres no problem for the 'died wine' type
22:34:50 <Jacky^> died wine do NOT change
22:35:36 <Jacky^> k4ts: ask for a good pizza recipe
22:35:49 <Jacky^> we'll pubish it in a wiki :P
22:36:24 <k4ts> 2 cucchiai di olio extra vergine d'oliva =two spoonoil of olive
22:36:26 <alex_joni> Jacky^: I imagine there are millions of pizza receipes out there
22:36:32 <rayh> I once asked a hotel keeper in a small town near koln DE if they had a good Rhine wine.
22:36:43 <alex_joni> huh? good rhine wine?
22:36:47 <alex_joni> there is no such thing :D
22:36:48 <k4ts> rayh:  write?
22:36:49 <rayh> exactly
22:37:04 <Jacky^> alex_joni: sure, but important secret are hidden
22:37:21 <Jacky^> alex_joni: you should know pizza is closed source :D
22:37:29 <alex_joni> heh, not necessarely
22:37:44 <Jacky^> I will discover why it is different in naples !
22:37:57 <alex_joni> Jacky^: because it started there
22:38:05 <Jacky^> no ..
22:38:08 <alex_joni> if I know the history well enough
22:38:33 <Jacky^> the milk they use are the first secret
22:38:33 <k4ts> sale = pinch salt
22:38:39 <Jacky^> for 'mozzarella'
22:38:55 <Jacky^> water may is another small secret
22:39:09 <Jacky^> and temperature and others ..
22:39:10 <alex_joni> actually pizza was first made in greece
22:39:20 <alex_joni> after that they started selling it in naples
22:39:21 <Jacky^> probably
22:39:37 <k4ts> 20 grammi di lievito = yeast
22:39:52 <Jacky^> k4ts: where youre looking ?
22:40:11 <k4ts> what?
22:40:16 <Jacky^> the recipe
22:40:22 <k4ts> Jacky^: ?
22:40:31 <k4ts> write
22:40:33 <k4ts> on
22:40:41 <Jacky^> on your mind ? :P
22:40:50 <k4ts> i write on
22:41:46 <k4ts> k4ts	500 grammi di farina = flour [{google:en|it} 500 grammi di farina = farina ]k4ts	2 cucchiai di olio extra vergine d'oliva =two spoonoil of olive [{google:en|it} d'oliva supplementare di vergine dei 2 cucchiai di olio = spoonoil due di oliva ]
22:42:07 <Jacky^> k4ts: thats a basic recipe
22:42:13 <Jacky^> all knows that
22:42:29 <Jacky^> you should talk to Don Gennaro 
22:42:38 <Jacky^> U pizzaiolo !
22:42:50 <Jacky^> to get some more secrets
22:46:53 <alex_joni> http://www.inmamaskitchen.com/FOOD_IS_ART/pizzahistory.html
22:47:50 <Jacky^> neat doc
22:47:54 <alex_joni> darn, now I'm hungry :D
22:48:06 <Jacky^> hehe
22:48:27 <k4ts> alex_joni:  also me
22:48:33 <k4ts> sigh
22:48:39 <alex_joni> I'll go to bed..
22:48:45 <Jacky^> k4ts: mee to*
22:48:49 <Jacky^> ops
22:48:53 <Jacky^> me too
22:48:58 <Jacky^> not also me
22:49:06 <Jacky^> night alex_joni 
22:49:07 <alex_joni> night all
22:49:08 <k4ts> ok
22:49:11 <k4ts> sorry
22:49:14 <k4ts> teacher
22:49:19 <Jacky^> lol
22:49:21 <Jacky^> :)
22:50:51 <rayh> see you
22:50:57 <rayh> alex
22:51:05 <rayh> glad you got motors running
22:53:19 <k4ts> jacky my puzzle
22:53:52 <Jacky^> is completed ?
22:54:01 <cncuser> cncuser has joined #emc
22:54:03 <k4ts> is nuisance
22:54:06 <cncuser> hidiho
22:54:10 <Jacky^> hi cncuser !
22:54:18 <Jacky^> I was waiting you 
22:54:20 <k4ts> ih
22:54:20 <Jacky^> :)
22:54:28 <cncuser> hi jacky
22:54:34 <cncuser> well here i am
22:54:42 <Jacky^> whats up ?
22:54:49 <cncuser> lfs :(
22:54:57 <cncuser> rebuilding puppy from source
22:55:14 <Jacky^> I was reading this doc: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl/emcinfo.pl?Emc_Puppy
22:55:42 <cncuser> but not now, now im just haning around some more minutes before i hit the iceland
22:55:49 <Jacky^> wonder why: I've also decided not to apply the NTFS patch described in http: etc ..
22:56:04 <Jacky^> maybe because ntfs support is experimental ?
22:56:46 <Jacky^> Im looking to puppy with a great interest too
22:57:09 <cncuser> Jacky^: shure its experimental. but i dont know why its not includet.
22:57:30 <Jacky^> I hope it work, anyway
22:57:45 <cncuser> Jacky^: i the acitve version (like the howto explains) i have the ntfspatch applied
22:58:10 <cncuser> jacky:you jjust need it for writeacces of filesysstemimages on ntfs filesystems
22:58:20 <Jacky^> I know
22:58:23 <cncuser> if dont want to do thatyou dont need it at all\
22:58:39 <Jacky^> for what I think, many users could use that feature
22:58:49 <Jacky^> using win xp
22:59:09 <Jacky^> its not for me
22:59:18 <cncuser> jacky: shure, thats why puppy has this as default. bescause the target for puppy is windowsuseres
23:00:00 <SWPadnos> sorry cncuser - I haven't gotten the qemu installation working yet (for fast compilation)
23:00:01 <Jacky^> yeah .. wonder if there is any issue with ntfs support enabled and RT kernel
23:00:12 <SWPadnos> maybe I'll burn a puppy iso
23:01:20 <cncuser> SWPadnos: no problem, im stuck anyways
23:01:25 <Jacky^> cncuser: you worked on coolcnc too I suppose
23:01:40 <Telefunken> Telefunken has quit
23:01:43 <cncuser> SWPadnos: for puppydev does not allow to build itself.... i need to build it up first
23:01:51 <Jacky^> what license you used to release the distro as general ?
23:02:22 <Jacky^> is it re-usable or need to ask for some permission ?
23:03:10 <cncuser> Jacky^: its gpls, like the stuff includet i assume. but i would not use this for anything as its crap :)
23:03:11 <Jacky^> Id like to build a cusom distro with RT kernel,emc2 and others robotics tools for my community (Roboitalia)
23:03:28 <cncuser> Jacky^: id go with the howto
23:03:55 <Jacky^> cncuser: are you on the forum?  http://cooltool.he.fdread.org/cncforum/ 
23:04:09 <rayh> rayh has quit
23:04:11 <cncuser> Jacky^: from time to time.. once a week now :)
23:04:21 <Jacky^> ok, thanks ;)
23:04:52 <Jacky^> anyway, the howto you refer is that on our wiki ?
23:05:09 <cncuser> jacky: if you need help with puppy, just drop me a mail.
23:05:14 <cncuser> Jacky^: yes
23:05:16 <Jacky^> ok
23:05:18 <Jacky^> ty
23:07:39 <cncuser> jacky: you are into robots ?
23:08:31 <Jacky^> cncuser: http://www.roboitalia.com/
23:08:54 <Jacky^> the plan of my first cnc comes from here
23:09:12 <Jacky^> im not so fmiliar with robots, but I like it
23:09:32 <cncuser> Jacky^: ic, nice
23:09:42 <Jacky^> Im building something : http://digilander.libero.it/jackydgl0/idroid/idroid.html
23:09:49 <Jacky^> just for fun
23:10:03 <Jacky^> my first interest are CNC 
23:10:52 <k4ts> 0_0
23:10:55 <k4ts> sigh
23:10:58 <Jacky^> I got an admin role on the community and I'm tryng to get more peoples around Linux/emc
23:11:12 <Jacky^> ok ok .. and k4ts too :D
23:11:28 <cncuser> Jacky^: if you dont want to spend enormous amounts of time i suggest you buil packages for a distri. maintaining the whole beast ismuch work.
23:11:55 <Jacky^> I have at least 2 targets
23:12:18 <Jacky^> first emc2 running a neat gui (I like axis)
23:12:38 <Jacky^> second a way to program microcontrollers 
23:12:44 <cncuser> heheh
23:12:51 <Jacky^> avr and pic if is possible ..
23:13:04 <cncuser> jacky: the avrthingy i want to do too
23:13:17 <cncuser> jacky: also i thought about qcad
23:13:22 <Jacky^> in puppy ?
23:13:27 <Jacky^> nice
23:13:37 <cncuser> yes
23:13:58 <Jacky^> another thing I would do is to translare some importante doc in IT
23:14:17 <Jacky^> many peoples  are 'hard' to understand
23:14:27 <cncuser> well, i could release a new version allready, but there are some issues with systemcrashes du to Xserver autoprobing....
23:14:41 <Jacky^> but just the most important docs ..
23:15:09 <cncuser> Jacky^: manpages ?
23:15:13 <Jacky^> nope
23:15:16 <cncuser> Jacky^: emc ?
23:15:25 <Jacky^> yeah
23:15:27 <Jacky^> emc2
23:16:10 <Jacky^> I think, if these peoples understand well how it work and how much powerful it is
23:16:23 <Jacky^> they will use it  a lot
23:16:40 <Jacky^> they dont know nothing about it
23:16:50 <cncuser> ic
23:17:12 <cncuser> jacky: is there a italien axis translation ?
23:17:25 <Jacky^> dunno ..
23:17:37 <Jacky^> never seen it
23:17:43 <SWPadnos> cncuser, if I start with the puppysit.iso, is there a web page that will get me going with the compile you're doing?
23:17:53 <SWPadnos> (a new install of that iso)
23:18:17 <cncuser> AXIS 1.2a1 is now available. This is the first alpha test release of the next version of AXIS.
23:18:17 <cncuser> The major new feature in this release is internationalization: AXIS can now be translated into any language supported by Tk. So far, translations have been contributed for German, Romanian, Hungarian, and Italian. More Information 
23:18:26 <cncuser> SWPadnos: no
23:18:33 <SWPadnos> heh  -OK
23:18:42 <cncuser> SWPadnos: you can dumb puppysit
23:18:48 <cncuser> SWPadnos: a dump
23:18:57 <cncuser> SWPadnos: follow the howto
23:19:13 <SWPadnos> sure - I can get a CD with puppy on it, and install - that's no problem
23:19:31 <SWPadnos> it's helping with the stuff you're doing that I'd need directions for
23:19:47 <cncuser> SWPadnos: now you lost me :)
23:19:52 <SWPadnos> heh
23:20:11 <SWPadnos> remember - you wanted me to compile somme stuff, since my machine should be a bit faster than yours
23:20:34 <Jacky^> haha
23:20:37 <SWPadnos> maybe it's been long enough that your machine finished ;)
23:20:54 <cncuser> SWPadnos: yes, i do remember. there was a problem with systemhangs
23:21:12 <cncuser> SWPadnos: its related to freedesktopXserver in some way
23:21:17 <SWPadnos> ok
23:21:29 <SWPadnos> maybe I'll just do a Gentoo install instead ;)
23:21:36 <cncuser> hehe :)
23:21:40 <Jacky^> ouch
23:21:43 <SWPadnos> it's so much faster once it's finished, don't ya know
23:21:53 <cncuser> SWPadnos: haha
23:22:09 <Jacky^> SWPadnos: how much time you have to compile ? 
23:22:24 <SWPadnos> how do you mean?
23:22:34 <Jacky^> using gentoo
23:22:34 <cncuser> 1. noone ever finished gentoo. 2. you grow older faster with gentoo, thats right :)
23:22:39 <SWPadnos> I can set the machine going, then leave it - it's a new workstation that I don't use all the time
23:23:00 <Jacky^> no need to stay around it ? :P
23:23:00 <SWPadnos> it only takes around 15 minutes to compile the 2.6.12 kernel (including most modules)
23:23:02 <Jacky^> nice
23:23:26 <SWPadnos> it might actually be able to finish a Gentoo install
23:23:34 <cncuser> SWPadnos: glibc checks took 2 hours on my puter :)
23:23:49 <cncuser> SWPadnos: a p4 2,6ghz (got my new mobo)
23:23:53 <SWPadnos> I haven't tried glibc on this one
23:23:55 <SWPadnos> cool
23:24:53 <cncuser> SWPadnos: do you run system virtualisationsofwtare ?
23:24:58 <SWPadnos> I try
23:25:03 <cncuser> like vserver or zen or ssomething ?
23:25:25 <SWPadnos> VMWare works well, qemu netwroking doesn't work, haven't tried Xen
23:25:45 <cncuser> SWPadnos: i run vserver for more then 2 years. havent had no probs so far.
23:26:34 <cncuser> SWPadnos: did you get the newest qemu and compile it ? the debian qemu is a little, welll...hmm hard to get on the net
23:26:46 <cncuser> also without kqemu, no fun
23:26:55 <SWPadnos> phone
23:28:32 <cncuser> well
23:28:33 <cncuser> jacky
23:28:48 <cncuser> have you ever milled this cube in a cube in a cube thingy ?
23:29:12 <cncuser> i dont know the name
23:29:30 <Jacky^> never heard..
23:29:35 <Jacky^> what is ?
23:29:53 <cncuser> like..hmm
23:29:58 <cncuser> you start with a cube
23:30:27 <Jacky^> no clue :(
23:30:53 <cncuser> and drill holes till you got 2 cubes within one cube. 
23:30:58 <cncuser> cube in a cube in a cube
23:31:10 <Jacky^> never tried
23:31:12 <cncuser> hmmm
23:31:18 <cncuser> looks great
23:31:22 <cncuser> id like to make one
23:31:30 <cncuser> birthday present
23:31:42 <cncuser> for the car back mirror :)
23:31:47 <Jacky^> :-)
23:32:08 <Jacky^> I just tried some gcode file included in emc
23:32:18 <Jacky^> and some 3d relief
23:34:53 <cncuser> similar to this but with another peacehttp://www.embeddedtronics.com/3dcube.html
23:34:58 <cncuser> piece :)
23:35:06 <cncuser> but peace anyways
23:35:46 <Jacky^> cool :D
23:36:44 <cncuser> yes, i think too
23:36:49 <cncuser> well
23:36:54 <cncuser> time to hit the road
23:37:11 <Jacky^> see you next time :)
23:37:23 <cncuser> -6.7 celsius
23:37:24 <Jacky^> bye
23:37:30 <Jacky^> damn
23:37:35 <cncuser> ill idle, be back in a few hours
23:37:48 <cncuser> cu
23:38:28 <Jacky^> later
23:38:34 <SWPadnos> ok - I'm back
23:38:36 <SWPadnos> now that you're leaving ;)
23:38:50 <SWPadnos> not on purpose, I swear
23:39:14 <cncuser> hehe
23:39:22 <cncuser> where were we ?
23:39:24 <cncuser> a qemu
23:39:28 <SWPadnos> I remembered that I did compile qemu
23:39:34 <SWPadnos> including kqemu
23:39:55 <SWPadnos> but networking still didn't work (even though I have the /dev/tun node)
23:39:58 <cncuser> and did: modprobe keqmu : /usr/local/bin/qemu ....
23:40:06 <cncuser> you dont need /dev/tun
23:40:16 <SWPadnos> actually, the module was loaded automatically by qemu
23:40:30 <SWPadnos> I suppose I could specify user networking
23:40:39 <cncuser> strange
23:40:46 <cncuser> should work out of the box
23:40:53 <SWPadnos> I agree
23:41:06 <cncuser> you are shure you didnt run the old binary ?
23:41:52 <SWPadnos> pretty sure.   I'm booting that machine, I'll have a look
23:42:11 <cncuser> ok, else its soemthing for the qemu mailinglist i assume
23:42:14 <cncuser> cu
23:42:24 <SWPadnos> ok - see ya