00:09:26 03alex_joni * 10emc2/configs/stepper/stepper_mm.ini: fixed bug #1406189 , thanks floh for spotting it 00:21:19 night all 00:21:23 Jacky^ has quit 00:36:23 lerman__ has joined #emc 00:36:58 rayh has quit 00:37:45 SWPadnos is now known as SWP_Away 00:40:42 jmk_dinner is now known as jmkasunich 01:04:45 lerman__ has quit 01:15:21 skunkworks has joined #emc 01:15:44 tonyp has joined #emc 01:16:52 hellooooo. I really need some help from anybody 01:17:44 what kind of help do you need? 01:18:04 tonyp: what's burning? 01:18:07 I have a z axis problem on a router that wont repeat 01:18:25 what emc are you running? 01:18:34 steppers or servos? 01:18:47 it seems to drift all over the place, I just upgraded to the 4.38 today and it is steppers 01:18:52 and a dozen other questions that we need to understand your situation 01:19:15 4,38 is supported by Paul Corner, we know nothing about it 01:19:25 he has a mailing list, URL in a minute 01:19:54 http://ourproject.org/projects/bdi4emc/ 01:20:11 thats the one 01:20:24 When running a z-.010 z0 z-.010 z0 and so on it seems to miss signals up and down and ends up drifting all over the place. 01:20:45 sounds like lost steps, but I really don't know the BDI-4.38 at all 01:20:56 this is not a release problem. I have had this since I built this a year ago 01:21:06 the same problem? 01:21:09 it did the same with rc46 01:21:19 yes the same problem. 01:21:20 why didn't you say so? 01:21:24 ;-) 01:21:36 I dont type fast enough 01:21:36 have you tried reducing accel? 01:22:36 yes, replaced the gecko, rewired with a 3 foot cat 5 cable and changed to the 4.38 just to make sure the release wasnt the problem 01:23:02 I asked about accel, not about all that 01:23:19 yes was the answer to accel 01:23:27 what was your original accel, what is it now, does it work correctly for any value of accel, even very slow? 01:23:57 are your TRAJ accel and per-AXIS accel all the same? 01:24:00 If you want to use newer versions of emc, you're better off building emc 1.2.0rc1 or emc2 from CVS, not upgrading to bdi 4.xx. 01:24:21 per-AXIS accel is ignored for coordinated moves on those versions! 01:24:24 jepler: that may be so, but he has had the problem for a long time... 01:24:27 bdi 4.xx seems to lack a certain amount of, er, organizational transparency, right now. 01:24:56 no difference even on bdi rc46 01:25:08 tonyp: what are your accel limits, in the TRAJ section and in the AXIS sections of the ini file 01:25:21 5 01:25:35 I also used smaller and bigger 01:25:40 same problem 01:25:47 how much smaller and bigger? 01:25:56 1 to 20 01:26:04 no difference 01:26:07 what is max velocity? 01:26:19 is this an inch machine or a mm one? 01:26:36 1.5 or 89 inches per minute inch 01:27:01 X and Y work fine? 01:27:05 When I plug the z into the x or y it works great and the problem moves to the other axis 01:27:13 jmkasunich: right, but if he wants to compile emc1 from source, he's screwed with bdi 4.xx. 01:27:22 sounds like a driver problem 01:27:34 just replaced the gecko yesterday 01:27:55 with a 210 microstep 01:28:31 put on the cat 5 cable per marris's suggestion 01:28:32 tonyp: that isn't clear: when you plug the Z drive into the X motor? when you plug the Z motor into the X drive? Does the problem move with the motor or the drive? 01:29:03 the problem moves to the next axis 01:29:11 arrgh 01:29:23 the z motor works well when plugged into the x drive 01:29:33 the x drive then starts to drift 01:29:41 ???????????? 01:29:44 ayup 01:29:49 huh, you just contradicted yourself 01:29:51 been pullin my hair out 01:30:04 you mean the x axis starts to drift right? 01:30:04 let me try again 01:30:15 you just said: the Z motor works on the X drive, then you said the X drive starts to drift... 01:30:24 did you mean the X motor starts to drift? 01:30:31 * fenn is thinking a faulty electrical connection or electrical interference 01:30:40 yes when plugged into the z drive 01:31:02 so the problem is either the Z drive, or the Z signals from EMC 01:31:06 what does the cat5 cable do? 01:31:36 or the Z signal wiring. 01:31:45 2 sets of twisted pairs that are sure not to be cross with the wrong wire 01:31:49 fenn: reduces interference because it's twisted 01:31:55 cat 5 is probably an attempt to avoid noise 01:32:01 yes 01:32:17 you are using software generates step pulses out of the parport? 01:32:40 (no Pico systems boards or anything like that...) 01:32:52 I thought the z signals were the problem and that is why i got the 4.38 01:33:02 no pico 01:33:07 do all axis have the same scaling? 01:33:11 hard wired to the gecko \ 01:33:19 no on the scaling 01:33:20 what is the scaling (INPUT_SCALE, OUTPUT_SCALE) 01:33:37 for X, Y, and Z 01:33:43 x axis is 1495 01:33:50 y axis is 2450 01:33:59 * fenn prescribes hal and a square wave signal 01:34:07 z axis is 1350 01:34:11 take two measurements and call me in the morning :) 01:34:29 I dont even know how to do that 01:34:31 tonyp: 1350 steps per inch? 01:34:36 yes 01:34:37 fenn is being difficult 01:34:42 ignore him 01:34:50 are the Geckos microstepping? 01:35:10 only the y axis as the screw is 20mm lead 01:35:27 1350 microsteps/inch seems low, that means one turn of the stepper shaft (2000 microsteps) is about 1.5 inches travel 01:36:03 The scale is right to an indicator 01:36:10 wow 20mm lead? what diameter? 01:36:19 so you are running X and Z at 200 steps per revolution? 01:36:20 moving 1" =1" 01:36:26 yes 01:36:48 fenn: 1" 01:36:52 about 01:37:03 25mm 01:37:04 how big are the steppers? nema 34? 01:37:21 nema 34 at 640 oz in 01:37:48 gecko current is set right for the motors? 01:37:52 plenty of power. will bend the y axis if it hits the table 01:37:57 yes 01:38:23 two of the axis work great with the same setup 01:39:04 1350 steps/in at 200 steps/rev = 6.75 turns per inch on the leadscrew 01:39:14 does that match what you have? 01:40:01 I dont have the actual numbers/ the machine is in the garage and I dont remember exactly. these are within 100 though 01:40:15 1.5" per sec max velocity = 2025 steps per second at max speed 01:40:29 2025 is certainly not excessive 01:40:54 5 inch/sec^2 accel means about 1/3 second to go from zero to max speed 01:41:05 also seems reasonable 01:41:15 depends on how much iron you're slinging around 01:41:23 true 01:41:25 I get no following errors. I have been using the machine for a long time now for 2 axis stuff but seems to be getting worse 01:41:53 what is getting worse? I thought Z was always bad? 01:41:59 running a trim router on a ball screw with smaller than a 1/4 cutter 01:42:15 usually not very noticable on signs 01:42:21 should be able to get way higher accels and velocities 01:42:51 I can on the x and y 01:42:53 you said: When running a z-.010 z0 z-.010 z0 and so on it seems to miss signals up and down and ends up drifting all over the place. 01:43:03 do you have another computer to test with? 01:43:06 yes 01:43:10 and now you say "usualy not noticable" 01:43:12 which is it? 01:43:53 he meant it loses steps i think 01:44:00 if it drifts both ways 10 thou in a program that is cut .040 deep with a 1/32 cutter 01:44:03 I'm asking HIM to clarify 01:44:51 doesnt seem to lose steps as much as get a bad signal. I can see it happen on very slow feed rates and hear the motor move too far 01:45:04 too far? thats differnet 01:45:17 in both directions 01:45:23 now I'm starting to agree with fenn 01:45:28 that is what I mean by drifting 01:45:37 electrical noise causing extra steps 01:45:44 it is not consistant 01:45:45 i was starting to disagree with myself right then actually :) 01:45:49 noise rarely is 01:46:07 does it do it with the spindle off? 01:46:20 it's not overshooting and backing up is it? 01:46:28 I just rewired it/ Where would the noise come from 01:46:43 noise has its ways... 01:46:48 does it do it with the spindle off? 01:46:53 cradek: no spindle on 01:47:00 Had something similar when I was over-driving the stepper - try lowering the current. Had a stepper that we thought would handle high current - cut the current in half and no more problem. (gaining steps) 01:47:19 tonyp: are you saying it happens ONLY when the spindle is on? 01:47:32 spindle doesn't matter 01:47:34 have you put a scope on the step/dir lines right at the gecko? 01:47:38 on or off 01:47:43 same thing 01:47:53 ok 01:48:06 how do I cut the current in half. I am not very smart 01:48:37 cradek: I dont have a scope 01:49:00 you followed the gecko instructions for parallel, series, half-winding connections, and you selected a current setting resistor according to their instructions? 01:49:44 I got the resistor spec from Marris. But I can try a smaller current resistor if it will help 01:50:00 I have no idea if it will help or not 01:50:22 if Mariss thinks you have the right current, you probably do 01:50:52 that is what i thought. besides it works on the other drives x and y 01:51:03 they are set up the same way 01:51:04 are all three motors the same? 01:51:10 Yes 01:51:25 someone mentioned a different computer 01:51:27 ok, we can probably rule out motor current 01:51:36 don't go there yet 01:52:09 still on motor current, are you sure the all three resistors are the same value? 01:52:35 yes 01:52:42 (measure with an ohmeter is best, verify color codes or labels is next best) 01:52:44 I will double check 01:53:02 if that is OK, then we can pretty much rule out current issues 01:53:13 night all.. 01:53:20 * alex_joni is off to bed 01:53:23 are all three drives mounted next to each other? (in the same box or panel) 01:53:26 goodnight alex 01:53:35 I bought them at the same time and they came from the same pak 01:53:45 yes they are mounted in line 01:53:51 the resistors? thats good 01:54:20 do you have a breakout board? or does the cat5 wire run straight to the PC? 01:54:34 straight to the pc 01:54:59 so you have a bare naked DB-25 connector plugged into the PC? 01:55:11 one wire from each cat5 pair soldered to the connector? 01:55:14 a db 25 plug in the panel to plug into 01:55:22 what panel? 01:55:36 the control panel 01:55:42 you just said it went straight to the PC?!?!?! 01:56:00 one end of the wire is screwed to the gecko 01:56:10 where is the other end of THAT PIECE of wire? 01:56:41 geckos are wired to a male plug on the panel the cat 5 plugs into that and then to the computer 01:57:11 ok, see if I have this right.... 01:57:17 only a plug between the gecko and the computer 01:57:46 a homemade printer cable from the back of the PC to the connector on the control panel (made from cat 5 cable) 01:57:56 yes 01:58:04 what kind of wire from the connector on the control panel to the gecko? 01:58:29 stranded copper soldered to the db25 01:58:50 twisted or anything? 01:59:02 24 gauge not twisted 01:59:26 how long is that part? (the connector to gecko part) 01:59:38 8 inches max 01:59:56 3 feet to the computer on the cat 5 02:00:13 what are you using for +5V? 02:00:30 computer power supply 02:00:48 you have two pairs per axis in the cat 5, right? 02:01:01 step/+5, and dir/+5 for each axis 02:01:18 total of 6 pairs? (which means 2 pieces of cat 5) 02:02:10 no only one piece of cat 5 with four twisted pair 02:02:24 one pair per axis step and dir 02:02:37 how can you send 6 signals (X, Y, Z, step and dir for each) thru 4 pairs? 02:03:14 x step and x dir is only two wires and so on 02:03:29 so you aren't actually using pairs 02:03:43 that is not good for noise, and is probably not what Mariss had in mind 02:04:49 I really dont think it is noise because it is only on one axis 02:04:51 so your pairs are: (Xstep, Xdir) (Ystep, Ydir) (Zstep, Zdir) (+5v, +5v) ? 02:05:00 yes 02:05:20 and when you get to the control panel DB-25, how is that pinned out? 02:05:26 same as the wire pairing? 02:05:32 yes 02:05:56 then inside the control panel, you have three pieces of 24ga carrying +5 to the three drives? 02:06:06 and 6 more carrying the signals, 2 to each drive? 02:07:07 only on on the +5 and jumped to the other drives, yes to the 6 more carrying the signals 02:07:54 what is the order of the jumped +5? connector --> X --> Y --> Z, or something else? 02:08:13 z jumped to y jumped to x 02:08:23 z is first in line 02:08:58 there are two +5 wires in the cat5, right? 02:09:08 and two +5 pins on the connector? 02:09:17 uh, what about GND? 02:09:33 I am using a seperate power supply the +5 doesnt come from the cat 5 02:09:42 fenn: no ground, the geckos use common +5v, and pull low to turn on the opto leds 02:10:26 tonyp: I thought you said you were using the computer power supply!!?!? 02:10:57 a seperate computer power supply from a junk computer sorry for that 02:11:09 ewww 02:11:26 that is located inside the panel 02:11:42 [21:04:49] so your pairs are: (Xstep, Xdir) (Ystep, Ydir) (Zstep, Zdir) (+5v, +5v) ? 02:11:42 [21:04:58] yes 02:12:00 so is there a (+5, +5) pair in the cat 5 or not???? 02:13:02 no, I am sorry for that confusion. I am not very good at this. only step and dir and limit and ground in the cat 5 02:13:24 * fenn hides 02:13:29 +5 coming from the seperate computer supply 02:13:35 so your pairs are: (Xstep, Xdir) (Ystep, Ydir) (Zstep, Zdir) (ground, limitsw) ? 02:13:48 fenn: I have been trying that for awhile 02:13:56 Yes! 02:14:26 and in the panel, the ground from the extra power supply is tied to the ground pin of the connector (the ground wire in the cat5)? 02:15:04 yes! 02:15:28 is that extra power supply running anything else? 02:15:41 no 02:15:56 ok 02:16:02 that is not the best setup... 02:16:20 the extra power supply's ground is internally connected to its power cord ground 02:17:05 so you have a ground loop, from the PC power cord ground, thru its supply into the PC case, thru your cat5 ground lead, to the spare supply ground, thru its case to its power cord ground, and back to the wall socket 02:17:27 are the PC and the extra power supply plugged into the same wall socket or power strip? if not, that will make it even worse 02:18:01 yes all is run from the same powwer source. 02:18:18 one power cable to the machine and divided from there 02:18:35 the amps and spindle are on the same power cord tho, right? 02:19:14 the whole machine is run from one power cord 02:19:37 dmessier has quit 02:19:56 the only thing that isn't is the monitor for the computor 02:19:57 so noise from the main gecko power supply, and/or from the spindle motor, could couple into the ground of that extra power supply 02:20:21 so getting back to the wiring from the connector to the geckos 02:20:37 wouldn't that effect three axis's 02:20:46 there are six signal wires, each one goes from one connector pin to one gecko, right? 02:21:05 right 02:21:08 then there is a wire that goes from the ground connector pin to the extra power supply ground 02:21:22 yes 02:21:34 and one from the extra power supply +5v output to Z, then jumps to Y, then jumps to X 02:21:46 yes 02:22:05 what is the total length from connector to power supply to Z? 02:22:17 12" 02:22:21 max 02:22:36 so the supply is right next to the connector 02:22:48 below and to the left 02:22:58 but very close 02:22:59 inside the same box 02:23:13 within 3 inches 02:23:15 if the total length is 12", the connector to PS must be about 6, and PS to gecko another 6 02:23:16 ok 02:23:44 you cut the power supply wires short I guess (normally they're a foot or more long) 02:24:02 yes I did 02:24:23 trying to keep things neater 02:24:29 this must be an older supply, the new ones won't even start up unless they get a signal from the motherboard 02:24:51 what's the preferred way to do twisted pair from a parallel port? each signal twisted with +5v? 02:25:14 fenn: depends on the load, for a gecko thats what I'd try to do 02:25:15 some of the very old ones (XT, AT) are really noisy and need a good load to work well 02:25:34 cradek: good point 02:25:57 tonyp: is your auxiliary power supply super old (like it has the big red toggle switch on the side?) 02:26:11 no switch 02:26:20 from a 486 i think 02:26:35 so its switch is one of those four-wire jobs on a pigtail from the supply? 02:26:55 no 02:26:55 those aren't so bad 02:27:10 tonyp: no switch at all then? 02:27:14 the 5 volt I get from it is solid 02:27:31 a solid 5 on a voltmeter doesn't mean it's clean 02:27:42 no switch. plugs into the 110 and comes out 5 and 12 volt 02:27:56 just like that, no startup signal needed? 02:28:09 does the fan in the PS run as soon as you plug it in? 02:28:11 cradek: had an electrician check it for me 02:28:21 yes 02:28:41 runs as soon as it is plugged in. 02:29:01 did I hear right that it's only ever the Z drive that screws up 02:29:02 ? 02:29:14 only the z 02:29:29 then the z runs great on the x or the y drive 02:29:38 why not get out the soldering iron and switch the X and Z wires right on the back of the computer 02:29:46 the x and the y drive screw up when hooked to the z 02:29:53 you'll know once and for all whether it's software 02:29:57 wrong! 02:30:04 ? 02:30:45 tony is being unclear again 02:30:51 * cradek ships jmkasunich a beer 02:31:00 not software. I just tried two different ones today 02:31:01 the Z MOTOR works when hooked to the X DRIVE 02:31:15 the X MOTOR screws up when hooked to the Z DRIVE 02:31:15 ok 02:31:15 yes, perfectly 02:31:36 yes the same drifting as seen with the z 02:31:38 the X DRIVE never screws up, I don't think? 02:31:54 the x or the y drive never miss a step 02:32:00 this is why I said "wrong": the x and the y drive screw up when hooked to the z 02:32:08 ok so what I said still holds 02:32:23 you could rewire the connection to the parport 02:32:28 * jmkasunich is sorry to be such a nit-picker, but getting the facts absolutely straight is critical for this kind of stuff 02:32:39 and if the problem stays on Z, you know it's not emc 02:32:47 on the mill's Z 02:33:03 right 02:33:37 the z drive is the problem. when I unplug the z motor from the z drive and plug the z motor to the y drive it works perfectly 02:33:54 tony: its not neccessarily the Z drive 02:34:04 the z drive OR the power supply or the z wiring or your parallel port or emc 02:34:20 when I plug the y motor into the z drive the y axis starts acting erratically 02:34:24 it could be the Z signals from the PC, or the Z wiring in the cat5, or the Z wiring from the panel connector to the gecko, OR the drive itself 02:34:58 my suggestion will narrow it down quite a bit 02:35:08 exactly 02:35:24 switch the Z and X wires at the parport connector at the back of the PC 02:35:32 so keep track of what you know it's NOT 02:35:36 so far: the motor 02:35:38 is the problem stays on the Z drive and motor, it must be wiring or drive 02:35:39 that's it 02:35:46 it it moves, then it must be the signals 02:36:06 I replaced the gecko. I replaced the par port cable with the cat 5 and I replaced emc with a different version since yesterday and still the same problem 02:36:21 I get that! 02:36:36 ok, probably not the gecko 02:36:47 ok, what haven't you replaced? the power supply and the internal wiring 02:37:03 and since that is neither shielded nor twisted, it is vulnerable to noise 02:37:09 isnt there still a ground loop in there somewhere? 02:37:21 instead of just switching the motor, switch the wiring at the connector. if the problem moves it isthe par port 02:37:51 or emc 02:38:08 or the computer 02:38:25 would it be easier to just use a different computer. I can put emc on my laptop in 30 minutes and try that rather than the soldering? 02:38:40 laptop parport have their own issues 02:38:47 right 02:38:55 laptops are bad at running emc for several reasons 02:39:02 3.3 volt logic makes for a crappy parport, lots of people have had problems with that 02:39:05 I have used it before on a smithy mill with out any problems 02:39:18 also, the power management crap in laptops wreaks havoc on realtime code 02:39:35 sometimes you can get lucky, I know some people use laptops for emc, but mine didn't work 02:39:44 it's just luck 02:39:54 tonyp: laptoms sometimes work fine, but when you are troubleshooting, you don't want to add more variables 02:39:54 rc46 power management didn't work 02:40:05 * fenn would like to see a list of laptops that work 02:40:13 all power management is always disabled with realtime 02:40:34 you don't want your computer to suspend when the mill is running! 02:40:41 so please give me the best next step. I will do that in the morning and check back 02:41:12 swap signals at the parport end of the cable 02:41:24 ok it will be done! 02:41:32 if that doesn't work, draw a schematic diagram and send it to us 02:41:33 and check all your ground connections once more 02:42:00 (how do you have two power supplies connected together and no ground loops?) 02:42:00 yeah a picture would be great 02:42:31 On another note. I was running a smithy mill in the middle of a program and the laptop froze up. it finished the program before shutting down. pretty amazing. 02:42:31 fenn: he has a ground loop, no getting away from that 02:42:43 pretty scary 02:42:56 can you put toroids on it or something? 02:42:56 Ive been scared for a year 02:43:20 tonyp: don't give up 02:43:51 you've entered the spooky realm of analog electronics 02:44:11 you're in a twisty maze of ground wires, all alike 02:44:43 (you have been playing too many online rpg's) 02:44:59 it's from adventure 02:45:08 probably means I haven't been playing enough 02:45:31 heh 02:45:49 ok, just put the kids to bed. even with the problem i am blessed. thanks for all of your help and I will check back tomorrow. 02:46:07 me too. gnight folks 02:46:11 good night. 02:46:16 bye guys 02:46:23 still early here! 02:46:28 tonyp has quit 02:46:58 man what a mess 02:47:04 yeah 02:47:24 "Configuring bicyclerepair" (ubuntu install) 02:47:30