00:00:06 swindlwdows 00:00:11 swindledows 00:03:09 how do you get the picture up? i did it once in sherline and 3d view. 00:03:18 i'm suttin air now. :) 00:03:22 cutting 00:03:54 oops.. ok Backplot 00:04:51 ok this is way cool...... 00:05:42 daveland has joined #emc 00:05:52 Cool - EMC displaying on my WinBox! 00:06:47 got it on my Mac OS X box here 00:07:07 That's cool too. 00:07:33 I got it on my cellphone! 00:07:45 I just like having done something with open source software that's nigh on impossible on Windows 00:08:13 SymbianEMC! 00:09:35 hmm I was just checking website stats 00:09:48 greatly increased hits on emc stuff 00:10:00 oh I know why.... 00:10:13 Robin put me on the wiki I think 00:10:20 * paul_c throws some more fuel on the CCED fires 00:10:33 oh yeah? let me check 00:10:39 I thought CCED was burnt out already :) 00:11:18 nah, plenty of wood to burn. 00:12:31 hmmm minmal 256k...full 15 cdrs? 00:12:34 nice one (and even has an on-topic section) 00:12:41 256M 00:12:54 though ELKS might fit into 256K 00:13:04 paul_c, hello, how goes it? do you still particpate in cced? 00:13:16 participate is such a strong word :) 00:13:25 oops yeah meg 00:13:40 15 CDs would include a whole bunch of stuff you would never, ever need or want. 00:13:51 I would imagine 00:14:11 * paul_c lurks on CCED to monitor the linux fud 00:14:30 paul_c, i understand. 00:14:55 It's amazing how much crap gets thrown around 00:15:13 As I gain enlightenment, CCED has become unnecessary 00:15:15 though the configuration of EMC is daunting (relative to Mach2 or probably DeskCNC) 00:15:21 SWPadnos, that is why i dropped it several years ago. 00:15:30 It is just a marketing tool for me. 00:15:51 Try configuring mach2 with a text editor. 00:15:54 I've been interested in learning about the motor and mechanical end of things, and there's a fair amount of good information 00:16:19 paul_c: well - the really interesting about that is that you don't have to 00:16:35 I kind of do that bit for a living...partly 00:16:56 Just like with the Yahoo! hobbicast group - I got tired of reading "HI I WANT 2 MELT BEER CANS CAN U HELP ME PLZ" 00:16:59 i.e. designing machine tools 00:17:10 haha 00:17:17 right - LM Watts, right? 00:17:23 you can melt beer cans - WOW !!! 00:17:25 right 00:17:52 I've actually seen some bonehead abbreviate the word any with (wait for it...) n/e 00:18:07 haw 00:18:30 anyone here on cnczone? 00:18:51 that's the kind of question that paul is feeding "can I make a XYZ CNC?" 00:18:54 not me. 00:18:57 Ooo, he really saved some keystrokes, didn't he? 00:18:58 I am but it is of limited uesfulness 00:19:08 get some hits from there 00:19:09 yes - that was pointed out to him 00:19:13 not a lot but some 00:19:30 yeah - 'n/e' is so much easier to reach than 'any' 00:19:37 well it let me build my machine, i did not use their plans or anything but new to cnc and cutting now. 00:19:39 heh 00:20:38 I have some more articles coming up soon I hope on my site 00:20:50 Content is important 00:20:52 what site? 00:21:06 www.lmwatts.com 00:21:16 mostly machine design issues 00:21:23 How to melt beer cans: Step 1 - and this is important - REMOVE BEER FROM CAN 00:21:32 have to go to links in upper right 00:21:53 beer residue might be a good flux 00:22:18 anyway I am pretty good at removing the beer from the can 00:22:20 I like the big gantry router - I had looked through that page before 00:22:27 I can just see some hick taking a slug, and then throwing the still wet can into the melt 00:22:32 12 reps of 12 oz :) 00:22:56 SWP: thanks, it pretty much makes my daily bread 00:23:06 i got tired of explaining that melting any aluminum cans was a waste of energy and dangerous. putting a can with moisture into a curcible furnace is just asking for trouble. 00:23:14 les: Your webpages were part of my web research before I built my own CNC 00:23:22 cool 00:23:39 I have an artivle about grouted pads to put in 00:23:52 and bearing selection 00:23:56 article 00:23:58 I like the leadscrew compensation mechanism you made 00:24:08 les: I HATE YOU!!! (after seeing pics of your workshop =) 00:24:22 thanks...was not my idea....developed about 1820 00:24:28 lol 00:24:53 les: ok I must be blind. where's the cnc stuff on your website? 00:25:03 links -> ... 00:25:08 RIGHT 00:25:14 oops 00:25:15 I've got books of stuff like that - and a buddy of mine has a really old "How Things Work" 00:25:19 caps lock 00:25:26 well, I got me some really really really cheap torque wrenches 00:25:30 who needs more than Machinery's Handbook? 00:25:36 (and 6 years to read it) 00:25:40 haha 00:25:49 les didnt you say you had design issues section? 00:25:59 some stuff 00:26:10 http://www.lmwatts.com/cnc.html 00:26:11 that? 00:26:17 in the engineering section in links 00:26:32 yes that is some 00:26:54 It gets some hits 00:27:22 les: did you ever start producing your toolholders (in more than 0 quantity :) ) 00:27:49 I am trying to do woodworking half the time and machine design engineering half the time 00:28:01 ehat fo you do the other half? 00:28:04 what do ... 00:28:13 SWP: just for me...I use them every day 00:28:47 ah. Ther eare some nice ones on eBay, sold by Lathemaster Auction Specials, I think 00:28:55 the woodworking has been emc made cherry turkey calls haha 00:29:08 but grossing 3000 a week on them 00:29:16 well - that's respectable 00:29:21 so an ok budiness 00:29:27 (I had a bad year last yesr - around 30K total :( ) 00:29:30 business 00:29:39 year 00:29:55 So I decided to set up a machine shop :) 00:30:04 I went from living off my 401k a couple years ago to what I am doing now 00:30:20 * paul_c is browsing cnczone..... 00:30:25 Hmm. Well - I could live for at leas 42 seconds on savings :) 00:30:31 have a goal of six figures for the year 00:30:37 paul_c: S L O ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo W 00:30:54 I make 6 figures (I count cents to make me feel better) 00:31:00 haha 00:31:31 well 4th quarter 04 people started spending money again 00:31:37 $3000/wk on turkey calls?! 00:31:41 yes 00:31:43 like hunters use? 00:31:45 this ynneb is one sick puppy. 00:31:49 yes 00:31:56 cherry turkey calls 00:32:11 les wow! 00:32:15 well - at least there's a contest to win some Geckos 00:32:26 that is gross sales 00:32:32 but low overhead 00:32:33 les are you sure these aren't filled with "Wild Turkey" ?! 00:32:41 2 part time employees 00:33:00 $300/week payroll 00:33:16 les so if they're really lousy hunters, at leastt they won't care. 00:33:34 prob most of them are never actually used 00:33:38 But 00:34:02 I can truly say I am making an ok living from EMC! 00:34:28 how long is turkey and duck season for? 00:34:38 heh heh 00:34:38 varies 00:34:49 but I have a good order for all year 00:34:57 cost of inventory is low 00:35:08 no doubt 00:35:14 just raw material 00:35:34 how does cherry smell in the fireplace? =) 00:35:48 joe2000chevy has quit 00:36:13 oh...since 75% of the material is waste...I use it for grilling food 00:36:22 and 00:36:53 the end pieces are ripped into strips and turned into cherry butcher block 00:37:24 cool 00:37:33 again I hate you =) 00:37:42 haha 00:38:04 I SO much would like to have a shop =( 00:38:16 well get one 00:38:22 * Jymmm is in an apartment 00:38:48 I started out when I was 21 with a garage 00:38:59 first stationary tool was a bandsaw 00:39:08 I dont' even mean the tools, just the floorspace 00:39:16 then an atlas 6" metal lathe 00:39:56 I'm allowed to use the lawn shed, but it takes me 20 minutes just to setup my drill press to use it 00:40:04 funny thing...My shop is built on my old farm here...but it is getting too small 00:40:07 becasue of course I'm shaing it 00:40:16 yeah - it was a bitch getting the table saw, tabletop bandsaw, bench sander, DeWalt slide compound miter saw, router table, and the drill press into an apartment garage 00:40:20 (and still fit the minivan) 00:40:24 So I may be faced with moving to a commercial area soon 00:40:40 les well I suspect you have acrage 00:40:48 yes 00:40:56 I have incherage 00:41:16 I have to ask myself though....do I want to live in a factory? 00:41:19 and acherage :) 00:41:39 yes! I would love to have an abandond warehouse... 00:41:47 A 50 foot walk to work is nice 00:42:06 I'd toss in a mezzane, froof top patio 00:42:09 get an old shipping container (and a driveway to put it in) 00:42:21 SWPadnos: no drive for it 00:42:25 driveway 00:42:29 well - taht is a problem 00:42:54 SWPadnos yep, even getting ready to steal attic space to hide a compressor and blower 00:42:56 I have a friend outside LA who's going to get a couple of shipping containers and make an office 00:43:07 (Manhattan Beach, I think) 00:43:12 I have not decided yet to build more facilities here...but it is a good problem to have 00:43:26 you need efficiency, not space :) 00:43:38 les cant you toss up those metal bldgs easily enough? 00:43:45 sure 00:44:21 but I don't know if I want one very near my home 00:44:34 oh I have enough room... 00:45:03 just separate them a bit 00:45:18 need 3 phase power... 00:45:32 I think not a big problem 00:45:43 I use a converter now 00:46:17 you need big thick wires for lots-o-3Phase from a rotary converter. 00:47:06 I made the shop stick built near the house...the plan was to convert it to a guest apartment if I outgrew it as a workshop 00:47:19 plumbed and all 00:47:31 so - make a big workshop, and if you outgrow it, open a B&B :) 00:47:46 (post + beam) 00:47:47 yeah 00:48:31 I could use 3 or 4 thousnd square feet right now 00:48:58 Well...I'll see if this good economy keeps up 00:49:37 right now I am absolutely swamped 00:49:47 that's a good thing 00:50:01 yes...but bad stress 00:50:06 yes. 00:50:19 I always have either too much or too little work - never just right 00:50:21 SWPadnos has left #emc 00:50:30 SWPadnos has joined #emc 00:50:32 Those cnczone EMC forums could cause a little bit of damage for us. 00:50:35 wb 00:50:43 yeah it's always that way 00:50:56 paul: how so? 00:51:14 someone posts a question, no one answers... 00:51:28 cnczone? 00:51:31 the poster thinks "Miserable buggers" 00:51:32 well that is easy to fix 00:52:23 gezr: yeah a semi commercial cnc site 00:52:24 * paul_c doesn't have time to monitor yet more forums. 00:52:48 les : hmm 00:53:10 les : it is good to see you on this evening, sounds like things are going well 00:53:12 I monitor it only as little....get some machine design gigs from it sometimes 00:53:57 Gezr: thanks...things are ok other than I am very tired from so much work 00:54:45 I very very badly need a break 00:57:35 spring break? 00:57:40 I got out in the yard today, and pulling up the little weed stalks with the not open yet sead pods was just ripe for the lawn mower, so my lawn is sorta strange looking, and the neighbors are 100% sure im nuts, it was raining a bit, but the stalks are gone :) 00:58:09 Things are just starting to grow here 00:58:21 although snow is pridicted tonight 00:58:31 predicted 00:58:34 and my cheap harbor freight torque wrenches seems okay, I could probably never spend enough to feel comfortable with a torque wrench, so Im sure what I got will be fine 00:59:04 you can always calibrate em with a fish scale 00:59:19 yeah 00:59:25 its just scary 00:59:51 not knowing, wether the 64 you spent instead of 300 will do the job 01:00:14 Mine are cheap ones....but they were close enough 01:01:45 For machine stuff fasteners are ususally torqued up to about 80% of yield 01:02:04 yeah 01:02:33 im sure the same exists for this bike, who knows, if it comes apart I am the only one to blame :) 01:02:53 on a lot of car stuff "yield in place" is used....torqued beyond yield 01:03:07 so the wrench does not have to be accurate 01:03:32 material properties of the fastener determine the final clamping force 01:03:34 yeah thats true, I figure if im +/-20% it isnt going to matter 01:03:38 right 01:03:58 testing/callibration only matters for the testing 01:04:08 heh 01:04:52 "it was within .0001 accuracy when we tested it. You shouldn't be having any problems, it could be your tooling" 01:05:29 That's like my lab grade surface plates.... 01:05:52 graded in a lab, now they are but fancy table tops? 01:06:10 a one degree F temp difference between the top and bottom is enough to spoil the lab grade spec 01:06:22 AA grade 01:06:26 oh nice 01:06:46 so they really are not that good in practice 01:07:16 just a light shining on them will do that 01:07:23 all things are I guess meant to be as good as they can be, tested, and then sold to the masses to produce the best results they can 01:08:03 Well with stuff like cars and such a bit different 01:08:20 like spc and iso 9001:2000 01:08:24 ball screws can be too good, made at 68F, they just gall them selfs to pieces in your 78f shop 01:08:30 which I may need soon 01:08:41 things aren't tested at all 01:08:50 (not the final product) 01:09:09 wouldnt your buyer determine what level of process you use? 01:09:31 * gezr doesnt see a hunter thinking "oh yeah, that call is iso 9001 certed, its a better call" 01:09:46 For the industries I mentioned stuff is "six sigma" 01:10:01 that is the cert I would love to be trained in 01:10:26 Well, I may need to get the shop certified for that 01:10:36 cost a bunch 01:10:38 oh lord 01:10:40 yeah 01:11:01 lets hope they dont push that upon you 01:11:08 me too 01:14:16 certs of any kind easily double the cost of a production line 01:14:25 yes 01:14:36 I was reading about it today 01:15:06 I'm more used to the UL / CSA / CE / FCC realm, but it's all expensive 01:15:24 I have a good bit of experience with the old spc programs 01:15:46 Have done several UL/CSA on my products 01:16:00 and an FAA STC 01:16:15 It's funny - at my first business, we designed an entire radio remote control system 01:16:24 complete with custom aluminum extrusions 01:16:30 custom 6-color keypad 01:16:41 all radio / electronic / software desicn 01:16:56 and we went to a trade show (including booth and travel fees) 01:16:59 all for $25000 01:17:13 wow 01:17:16 S**** Looks like the upload of the BDI-4.18 terminated early. 01:17:20 long ago? 01:17:24 1992 01:17:45 (late August through early December - a whirlwind 3 months) 01:18:02 That included me going to New York to buy custom crystal oscillators 01:18:16 Well this encoder I designed for my old company rean about double that 01:18:18 (had to sit at the company until they handed them over :) ) 01:18:41 Oh yeah - we did nothing the "right way" - no deign docs, specs, testing, etc. 01:18:46 design, not deign 01:18:54 haha 01:19:13 These days, I tell people that a board design for a saleable product is between $50-100K or more, depending on complexity 01:19:26 yes sounds about right 01:19:41 There are always prototypes, FedEx, revisions, problems, "oops- that's not what I meant", etc. 01:19:55 all said and done the encoder will be about that 01:20:23 right - I'll save this so I can show it to the next customer that complains :) 01:20:56 I am just late on the factory testing machines 01:21:04 working on them tommorow 01:21:07 It's funny - we were going to bid on doing a temerature sensor for General Dynamics armament systems division 01:21:36 the budget was $80K, and we thought - $80k for a temp. sensor - we can do that! 01:21:42 hmm 01:21:52 well - we looked at the specs, and decided not to bid :) 01:21:58 radiation hardened? 01:22:10 SWPadnos: Uploading to your machine. 01:22:24 meant for use on a tank, in all weather conditions, on an arm that sxwings down from the tank turret... 01:22:31 paul_c: OK - let's see how that works. 01:23:01 had to have dust filters that couldn't be clogged (dual, with reversing fans to clear dust/sand) 01:23:39 My next scheduled engineering project is a device to make high voltage from compressed air for a powder spray gun 01:23:54 SWPadnos: Should be uploaded by 14:00GMT 01:24:14 OK - 2.5 hours expected? 01:24:24 working that in between turkey call production 01:24:42 a high voltage turkey call 01:24:42 haha 01:25:09 high electric field (electrostatics), or high power/high voltage 01:25:26 I'm going to call it a night - Tomorrow, may do some more with realtimeio.c 01:25:42 100kv/meter, only 6 watts 01:25:44 OK - good night. I'll try to do some EMC stuff this week. 01:25:55 night paul 01:26:01 (other than pester you with questions) 01:26:22 Just for Les: http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/cdzap.html 01:26:28 I also have to to a turkey call premium product line... 01:26:38 paul_c has left #emc 01:27:44 in other words incorporate inlays and figured wood into the product 01:28:01 cnc of course 01:28:03 have you seen CNC Toolkit? 01:28:08 no 01:28:27 There's a Yahoo group - CNC_Toolkit 01:28:36 hmmm 01:28:46 what's it about? 01:28:48 It's a plug-in for GMax (a free 3D design program) that generated 5-axis G-Code 01:29:17 sounds like rab gordon's stuff 01:29:19 There's a guy who's recently been making custom pool cues with it 01:29:21 it is 01:29:37 oh I know rab 01:29:56 I haven't played with it much, but it looks like it would do exactly what you want 01:29:57 yes 01:30:06 http://classiccustomwood.com/Rope.htm 01:30:28 Well right now we make a turkey call in about 2 minutes.... 01:30:33 even better - http://classiccustomwood.com/Double%20helix.htm 01:30:43 sells for $5.25 wholesale 01:30:55 It'll take longer with custom stuff, obviously 01:30:58 this would be inlayed and stuff 01:31:08 sell for $25? 01:31:08 look at the second link 01:31:12 looking... 01:31:42 the difficulty with inlay is that you have to cut out the hoole, then the inlay preferably from the same shape of wood), then actually put it in, carefully 01:31:48 big pain 01:31:59 nice 01:32:07 yeah that sort of stuff 01:32:13 yeah - not $195 nice, but still nice 01:32:45 that would be not too far from the premium turkey call msrp 01:32:59 we use the old 5:1 rule 01:33:06 I suppose there's a *very* high end for almost everything 01:33:23 msrp=man cost X5 01:33:29 yep 01:34:01 My old company (I was a co-founder, but left a few years ago) makes near-consumer electronics 01:34:13 it's sad to see the marketing company get more than the manufacturer 01:34:24 I may end up with emc doing 2 min of carving 01:34:43 and a worker doing half an hour of inlay stuff 01:35:22 I have to figure that out 01:35:41 yeah - that's not a great situation 01:35:48 oh and a car quality finish 01:35:52 rubbed out 01:36:01 unless you inlay something other than wood, you're probably going to be stuck in that boat though 01:36:04 will use a painting robot 01:36:26 have you seen a magnetic parts finisher? 01:36:44 (not that it would be good for wood) 01:37:04 well if I can make 50% net variable margin on having people do stuff...I'll hire them 01:37:15 magnetic? no have not seen 01:37:35 hmmm. ther ewas one on eBay around 8 months ago - I bid on it but didn't win 01:37:47 (plus it was several hundred pounds in CA.) 01:38:20 I have the several hundred pound s in cal problem often 01:38:31 apparently, it's a method of finishing which provides a high polish, uses stainless pins in a plastic bowl 01:38:45 underneath is a rapidly spinning magnetic field 01:38:47 tumbled? 01:39:07 whips the pins all over the place, and they polish the surfaces, including inside threads (if you use small enough pins) 01:39:17 hmm 01:39:24 like a vibratory tumbler, but using magnets to propel the media 01:39:32 Lemme see if I still have a link... 01:39:48 Well I have a sanding work station which consists of a special chuck and a sevo 01:39:53 servo 01:40:26 would also use that with automotive rubbing compound for the premium ones 01:40:32 the parts are round 01:40:44 right - spin the part, but that leaves streaks 01:41:00 certain streaks we want 01:41:08 very fine ones 01:41:19 it gives an opalescent quality 01:41:42 you saw the pictures right? 01:41:44 right - but don't you want those to be in varying directions? 01:42:09 no concentric looks the best 01:42:11 just the furniture, not the turkey calls 01:42:19 gives a nice shimmer effect 01:42:31 oh furniture... 01:42:46 usually it is rubbed out in straight lines 01:43:01 I mean I saw furniture photos, not turkey calls 01:43:10 oh 01:43:13 hang on 01:44:27 http://www.dynamiccalls.com/Catalog.htm 01:45:04 all made with emc 01:45:24 cool. 01:45:42 but those are just semi gloss finished 01:45:44 (I must say, I don't know enough about turkey hunting to recognize the calls :) ) 01:45:56 the premium ones would be rubbed out 01:46:17 heh..I have never been turkey hunting 01:46:19 haha 01:46:27 I just make the stuff 01:46:34 I recognize the dead turkey head though 01:46:40 yeah 01:46:51 yeah - I'm not a photographer, but I've made radio controls for them :) 01:47:04 right 01:48:13 well anyway...tommorow I need to finish and ship the usb production testers for my encoder 01:48:26 What type of encoder? 01:48:42 automotive...absolute 01:48:49 Ah 01:48:52 picture here: 01:49:24 http://lmwatts.com/v-web/b2/ 01:49:27 does the tester go through temperature and other environmental conditions? 01:49:42 no just linearity 01:49:57 used in a controlled temp environment 01:50:13 I have temp compensation on the product 01:50:20 OK. People say automotive, and I imediately think -40 - 140 degrees C :) 01:50:45 -40-+85 01:51:08 the first picture is the tester 01:51:12 I thought it went above +85 (I was just going to question whether it was +100 or not) 01:51:16 the second is the product 01:51:33 Ah yes - one of the photos during the BDI install :) 01:51:41 somr under hood goes past +85 01:51:56 WHAT? 01:52:06 what has paul put on there? 01:52:09 haha 01:52:17 I think so - get a BDI-4.16 ot later :) 01:52:27 really 01:52:29 haw 01:52:31 (doesn't say what it is though) 01:52:36 well that's cool 01:52:47 all that stuff was made with emc 01:53:04 you did the board etching as well? 01:53:11 and we have 100k units/year sold 01:53:11 les: I meant to ask you earlier... do you have pics of stuff you've done with EMC both finsihed and WIP ? 01:53:21 do a BDI install 01:53:25 ok 01:53:53 Jymmm: the link I just posted was done with emc 01:54:07 les: sorry, I meant wood 01:54:11 ( or he can do a BDI install :) ) 01:54:13 the sign link at my web site has stuff that is all emc 01:54:14 les: have you ever thought of any designs for a very small fast spindle? 01:54:22 say 1/20-1/10HP 01:54:32 hi john 01:54:35 for milling wax, plastic, wood 01:54:50 on a budget? 01:54:53 of course 01:55:27 MSC/Enco has a 60,000 rpm air pencil grinder for about 50 bucks 01:55:31 I picked up a couple of nice small 2-axis servo mechanisms, was thinking about making a desktop size machine 01:55:49 really small and not too powerful: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3876707702 01:55:58 MUST use oil mist lube with it 01:56:15 don't want air - want a portable machine, 110V power 01:57:24 SWP's link might be neat...I have been looking at that guy's stuff 01:57:33 that looks really nice 01:57:42 might be just the ticket 01:57:52 damn - look at this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3877160125 01:58:44 that's way too big for my needs, but nice 01:58:57 yeha - pretty big 01:59:10 the othe rone can only take 1/8" shaft tools 01:59:15 (like dremel) 01:59:26 the axis mechanism I have is here: http://home.att.net/~jmkasunich/Pics/miniservo1.jpg 01:59:34 looks neat...just bookmarked it 01:59:59 Incidentally, a"high end" Dremel could be the ticket as well. 02:00:09 19.1V pittmann motors, 1/4" diameter x 1/4" lead screw for Z, 3.3" travel 02:00:23 maybe - I don't like dremels tho 02:00:32 what do you want to use it for? 02:01:01 mostly demo and testing, but possibly for milling wax models (jewelry, my wife's interest) or engraving 02:01:37 the mechanism has 0.0001" resolution on the long axis and 0.00016" on the short one 02:01:38 I don't have a dremel. Silly reason...you know those little 1" circular razor saws for it? 02:01:54 yeah.. nasty little devils 02:02:35 Hmmmm, I'm condering this http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3877575376&ssPageName=MERC_VI_RSCC_Pr4_PcN__Stores 02:02:43 I buried one in my hand once. Spent night in emergency room triage...blood spurting on shop ceiling etc 02:02:46 take a look at this dremel model - it may be better than some of the others: http://www.dremel.com/productdisplay/Display.asp?SKU=398 02:03:07 but don't put it through your hand :) 02:03:17 I did 02:03:21 I have the 30KRPM model 02:04:09 les ouch! 02:04:21 I went into shock. 02:04:29 which is silly 02:04:33 Jymmm: that's from the same guy as the one I posted - it's an earlier model with the drive screw 02:04:36 but I did. 02:04:50 well - blood loss and things like that will do that to you 02:04:52 SWPadnos is it any good/worth it? 02:05:10 I don;t know - Les and John don't seem to think it's shite 02:05:19 heh 02:05:43 I just figure "Hey here's a Z with rotary" all in one shot 02:05:51 look at the second one I posted, if you want to see a big honker 02:06:08 I kinda like the ebay motors... the dremel's don't get me excited... 02:06:23 too noisy, not that well balanced, and nasty shape to try to mount 02:06:34 I dont like dremel brushes mostly 02:06:37 * jmkasunich doesn't think much of "universal" motors 02:06:40 yeah - the whining is pretty annoying 02:06:49 I would love to have a brushless motor 02:07:06 There was an item on eBay called a "Tapmatic Drill Speeder" 02:07:20 it was a 6.25x spindle for use in a drill press or milling machine 02:07:26 max 15kRPM 02:07:33 (output) 02:07:36 was looking on the web, some RC flying folks are rewinding CDROM drive motors and replacing the plastic magnet ring with rare earth magnets to get motors approaching 75W, but very small, light and fast 02:07:38 I see these sewing machien motors attached to hi-speed spindles, but nfc in the spindels 02:08:27 jmkasunich 75Watts? 02:08:37 1/10 HP 02:08:39 yep 02:08:51 oh 02:09:21 never heard watts used to describe hp in an electoric motor before. 02:09:37 all the time - 1HP = 746 watts 02:09:50 John: remember that rc car I had on the shelf in the office? 02:10:04 SWPadnos: ok, fair enough =) 02:10:07 The one we used to test suspensions? 02:10:58 anonimasu, sorry, I was away. I'll make links to the TTF files as well. 02:11:00 it has a 100 amp motor and PWM drive 02:11:00 jmkasunichL well if you want cdrom drives, let me know how many pallets =) 02:11:42 only runs a minute or two 02:11:45 yeah, les... RC folks do some wild stuff 02:12:18 Gang: http://24.102.90.20/Fonts (unsorted) http://24.102.90.20/Fonts/engravable http://24.102.90.20/Fonts/NOT 02:13:29 http://www.littlescreamers.com/products.htm 02:13:50 nice link...always looking for more true type fonts 02:14:40 that's my computer... and I'm still sorting. 02:15:14 But - what does a 'G' look like in all those fonts? :) 02:16:17 where do you get these fonts? 02:17:18 danfalck, online... all over the place. 1000freefonts.com or 1000fonts.com something like that. 02:17:29 That motor video is nuts....a little smaller than the car ones...but I can tell from the sound that the rpm is WAY upthere 02:18:07 prob a good fraction of a hp too 02:18:35 which video is that? 02:18:56 the ones under the specs table 02:19:06 the streaming video on the littlescreamers link 02:19:37 I don't have video on the linux box 02:19:43 bet it's 20-30k rpm 02:19:45 * jmkasunich switches to the win box 02:22:05 I don't see how he has sttitude control on that 02:23:44 I'm still tryign to figure out where the servos were on it 02:23:51 I think even a stock CDROM motor will go to 10000RPM plus... I think normal CDROM speed is about 300 RPM, so a 48X drive would be going pretty darn fast 02:24:33 Kenwood had a 72x drive, but I think that was some buffering / compression trick 02:24:54 I think CDs come apart at 20k or so (there are some good videos on this subject :) ) 02:25:17 42K 02:26:24 dumb question... is there any way to cut using a router table.... cut as into pieces as example. 02:27:31 like a horitonally mount jigsaw head 02:28:32 We cut out thingd in a "cracker panel"....leaving a small web to hold things together 02:28:57 narnia has quit 02:29:05 the parts just pop out 02:30:11 jjmk did you see that video? Those motors would be good for small engravers 02:30:36 took a while to download and get it going, but yes 02:30:38 pretty impressive 02:30:45 yeah 02:30:56 unfortunately, they don't give any specs other than the few on that page 02:31:05 $50 for the motor... I dunno if that includes the controller or not 02:31:18 prob sleeve bearings 02:31:26 I suspect that's just the motor 02:31:43 I dunno - most of the folks selling rewound CDROM motors use ball bearings 02:31:51 they talk about having a "brushless ready airframe" 02:32:00 hmm 02:32:17 I used to try to fly rc planes 02:32:20 could not 02:32:29 WEll, he had to use a rc srvo of some sort 02:32:43 for the control I mean 02:33:09 I LOVED the poly battery he had 02:33:14 I can fly bigger ones ok though 02:33:22 the screamers site seems very hype-ey... there are other folks selling similar motors and/or kits, for less money 02:33:43 yeah 02:34:20 But those light low moment of inertia brushless ones might be very good for engraving 02:35:26 The car ones approach one HP peak 02:35:35 crazy 02:35:52 23 grams 02:35:58 haha 02:36:24 with that rpm power comes in a small package 02:36:59 "Are you happy to see me or have a engraver in your pocket?" 02:37:22 for jewelry and stuff gang up about ten of em 02:37:24 haha 02:37:52 cheaper than westwind air spindles 02:38:01 * Jymmm still needs to find bits for that kind of stuff 02:38:15 pcb router bits 02:38:19 carbide 02:38:21 http://www.flyelectric.ukgateway.net/motors.htm 02:38:28 drilbitcity.com 02:39:01 I have some .01" diam carbide end mills 02:39:15 drillbitcity 02:39:30 are resharpened bits like those "ok" ? 02:40:14 a _400_ watt motor made from an old floppy drive - 10K RPM, 35A 02:40:44 neat 02:40:56 half a hp 02:41:28 jmkasunich: I have a Baldor DC servo that might work for you 02:41:42 it's 50 oz-in, 5kRPM 02:41:44 Jymmm: they work fine for me 02:41:46 les: where do you find .01 mills? 02:42:05 robbjack 02:42:13 The total power is 40V * 5.5A = 220 W 02:42:26 (peak of 30A) 02:42:40 one company has .0005" diam end mils!!!! have not tried them 02:42:44 with some gearing, it might do the trick 02:43:52 les: eeeesh.... the beam size on some of the lasers I've been looking at are only .003 02:44:14 wow 02:44:47 The smallest end mill I routinely use is .02 02:45:03 I use it for engraving electronic panels 02:45:34 the .01 is fragile 02:47:20 SWPadnos: thanks for the offer on the baldor, but 5K is pretty slow for this 02:47:44 I think I may take a shot at one of those CDROM motors 02:48:05 jmkasunich as-is, or rewired? 02:48:38 well - 1:4 gearing would help with that :) 02:49:28 * Jymmm has junk cdrom around here somewhere =) 02:49:31 Hm...I have a BUNCH of floppy drives I pulled apart - I guess I'll give making one of these a try 02:53:58 * jmkasunich wonders about the motors in harddrives... high quality bearings there... 02:54:07 I just keep thinking about that video...I guess little electric hummingbird things that can hover around you and take hi res video are a practical reality 02:54:09 10K rpm harddrives aren't uncommon 02:56:37 I'd like to play with RC jets... just not land them though... as I know I wouldn't be able to. 02:56:43 how could I control the motor out of a cdrom/hdd/floppy ? 02:56:46 oops, I scrolled up. :) 02:57:04 Jymmm, VDC... PWM, or amount of voltage. :) 02:57:25 oh, floppies are steppers. so with a driver. 02:57:27 HDs don't go beyond 15kRPM, and they take a while to get there. 02:57:39 SWPadnos, are we talking IDE? or scsi? 02:57:46 SWPadnos for free, I can wiat the 10.5 seconds 02:58:00 I haven't seen SCSI beyond 15K 02:58:16 Jymmm: well - that means there isn't a lot of torque there 02:58:34 so you may not be able to do anything except watch your tool cut air 02:58:55 well, anyone to gang a bunch of them together? 02:58:58 SWPadnos, but isn't cutting air AWESOME? 02:59:16 Frankly, I'd *love* to see some air cutting right now :) 02:59:20 don't need much torque if rpm is high 02:59:36 (trying to get USC / ppmcio driver to work on BDI-4) 02:59:55 (then make motor mounts) 03:00:11 ha...with my production I am trying to get air cutting to an absolute minimun 03:00:20 the reason disks take so long to spin up is the large inertia 03:00:41 not a big issue for a spindle? 03:01:04 true - a 5" platter has needs a lot more rotational energy than a 1/16" cutting tool 03:01:06 total weight of a spindle will probably be less than a stack of disks 03:01:14 (sorry - 3.5" platter these days) 03:01:17 and it will be at a much smaller raius 03:01:21 radius 03:01:36 get rid of the square term of radius and they would spin up fast 03:01:50 narnia has joined #emc 03:01:52 Ok, now the question is.... how to make a spindle ? 03:02:06 to use these on 03:02:11 what are the cutting forces like at those speeds? (say in aluminum) 03:02:12 high speed? 03:02:18 PC motors 03:02:28 for 1/8" bits/mills 03:02:31 cutting forces are low 03:02:51 a few pounds 03:03:03 or less 03:03:05 for engraving on wood aluminum 03:03:10 don't you still want the same chip thickness? 03:03:16 (as normal machining) 03:03:28 no 03:03:38 well - that would help then 03:03:44 unless you do high speed machining 03:04:05 right - that's what I'm thinking about - zip -zip-done 03:04:09 with that you have normal chip load 03:04:17 I'm talking engraving brass/wooden coins and such 03:04:27 but put 50 hp into a 1/2 end mill 03:04:51 and it'll melt 03:05:16 funny thing...after a point the chips become the coolant 03:05:53 I noticed that things got really easy after a certain feedrate 03:06:08 I was milling a 1" deep slot in aluminum, using a 1/2" endmill 03:06:13 I have seen it...it's really wild 03:06:29 crank at low speed, and it was hard - speed up a little, and it cut like butter 03:06:31 cutting AL at 300 ipm 03:06:45 I just needed a third hand to operate the Vacuum 03:06:52 (to clear chips) 03:07:16 I try to use as High a chip load as possible 03:07:25 cutters stay sharp longer 03:07:47 yeah - no sense cutting 1000 thin pieces wwhen 500 thick ones will do 03:08:02 A $50 carbide cutter lasts one day for me 03:08:13 That's one thing I was considering adding to EMC - a tool speed/feed calculator 03:08:23 That is why I quickly set up a sharpening jig 03:08:36 cutting wood? 03:08:40 yes 03:08:43 damn 03:08:54 6 hrs or so is doing good 03:09:08 is carbide ideal for wood (or would some cobalt or other thing be better)? 03:09:35 C2 carbide is good...diamond may be better 03:09:40 (there's another $250 a week, down the drain) 03:09:42 wow... just opened up an old SCSI drive... 10 platters! 03:09:53 dude - ST4096 anyone? 03:10:01 lol 03:10:05 the old workhorse 80M SCSI drive 03:10:07 ? 03:10:24 this ain't that old... 18GB 03:10:30 Well...I can now resharpen the flanks of spiral cutters at least 5 times....and that saves a lot of money 03:10:49 5.25" full height, full length,. two would weigh as much as a minitower these days 03:10:56 The diamond cup wheel cost only $100 03:11:18 using mostly the ends, not the sides? 03:11:37 using mostly the sides (flanks) 03:11:54 ah - does the diameter change a lot when you dsharpen? 03:12:18 I lose about .001 each time 03:12:24 not bad 03:12:44 must compensate in software for some cuts 03:12:52 others it does not matter 03:13:18 would roller blade bearins work for making a spindle? 03:13:22 bearings 03:13:27 yes 03:13:36 many are abec 7 03:13:51 rollerblade bearings are abec7? 03:13:53 wow 03:13:55 very small 03:14:01 but a good choice 03:14:12 * Jymmm with he knew what abec7 referenced =) 03:14:22 better than ABEC 2 03:14:25 I'm thinking of a spindle that takes either 1/8 or 3/32 shank tools 03:14:41 SWPadnos: Family fued "Good answer, good answer" 03:14:44 OD would be 1/4 or 3/8 in the bearing area 03:14:49 (American Bearing Engineering Council or something like that) 03:14:51 usually bearings are either abec 1 or 7 these days 03:15:01 not much in betweeen 03:15:03 MSC also has ABEC5, I believe 03:15:07 McMastercarr sells abec 5 in those sizes, for not to much (around $10) 03:15:09 a few 03:15:21 ok what does the number represent '7' ? 03:15:23 yes dynaroll 03:15:37 speed ratings up to 40-70Krpm, depending on size 03:15:41 it represents the loading you can put on the bearing 03:15:45 ah, ok 03:15:56 7= about .0001 radial runout 03:16:07 I thought abec ratings were accuracy/runout, etc 03:16:20 hmmm... now for a jaw 03:16:23 requires similarly accurate machining of the houding 03:17:00 abec 1= about .0004 radial runout 03:17:06 for small bearings 03:17:24 off the wall idea for a 1/8 shank "collet": 03:17:38 use compression fitting sleeves 03:17:43 jmkasunich: a dremel collet? 03:20:15 collets are often a problem for me 03:20:18 interesting - looking at MSC, the "loading" of a crap bearing (6204 size, just for reference) is around 70 pounds. A nice ABEC7 precision bearing is around 12,700 03:20:23 go figure :) 03:20:53 they last only a couple weeks in production 03:21:08 (prices: $5 or $188) 03:21:28 SWP....for a 6204 it should be similar for both grades 03:21:36 http://www.mcmaster.com/nav/enter.asp?pagenum=122 03:21:55 see the sleeves at the bottom right of the page? 03:22:08 well - they have some total crap imports that aren't. There were some that were in the middle - around 6K 03:22:13 jmkasunich yeah 03:22:22 I have the 3 volume bearing institute encyclopedia here...I'll hunt it up 03:22:30 machine the spindle nose with a precise 1/8 hole for the tool shank, and a taper and thread for a sleeve and nut from a compression fitting 03:22:34 please ... don't :) 03:22:55 sleeves are $0.15 each, can affort to compress one onto each tool 03:23:39 interesting idea 03:25:03 jmkasunich: sinc ethe ID on skate bearings is 1/4", what about useing brass rod (or tube w/ thick wall) and threading the end and then your idea? 03:25:25 I'd probably use steel, not brass 03:26:34 I wish I had a way to bore it, 03:26:37 damn... looks like they _glued_ the disks to the motor... drat 03:26:57 1/8" is a pretty small hole to bore 03:26:58 jmkasunich: oh hell no.... smacj that sucker it'll come out 03:27:04 that's what the blowtorch is for :) 03:27:13 one good wack! 03:27:33 jmkasunich oh, did you remove the screws? 03:27:37 I'd like the motor and bearings intact 03:27:58 no screws on this one - two E-rings, one on top and one on bottom 03:28:19 jmkasunich: they ALWAYS have screws. you just have to find them 03:28:37 until this one, I would have agreed with you 03:28:41 sometimes they're not that obvoius 03:29:15 it's nickle plated platters, toss a wide blade screwdriver between the platters and turn 03:29:58 tried that... platters bent to hell, still on hub 03:30:26 jmkasunich then start searching for those screws 03:30:43 I have NEVER been able to bend a platter that easily 03:31:07 ok, I get 12,700N (2860 lbf) dynamic load for a 6204 regardless of abec grade 03:31:11 jmkasunich this one doesn't have "Tonka" written on it does it? =) 03:31:12 no screws, just a hellofa press fit on the ring that holds the stack together 03:31:36 it finally popped after I went 3/4 of the way around with the big honkin screwdriver 03:31:44 newton/lb thing? 03:31:59 found it - cool high speed machining video: http://www.datrondynamics.com/VideoZone/Videos340kb/HighSpeedH.wmv 03:33:25 gawd I need to rebuild my desktop machine... but I dont have 5 days to spare 03:33:28 hmmm - I just searched MSC for bearings, entered the bore / outer diameters and thickness, then borwsed. 03:33:43 Get a new one and multitask :) 03:34:00 cool video...wild isn't it? 03:34:09 yeah 03:34:11 HUGE power on that tool 03:34:23 I believe it - 60kRPM spindle 03:34:26 ! 03:35:09 actually, they say it's only a 290W spindle 03:35:35 it must not be the same machine 03:35:37 290 kW mabye haha 03:35:58 25-50 hp is typical of what I have seen 03:36:28 if you go th their homepage, and click on the cheap ($46,800) miniraptor, they sae 290W... 03:36:49 must be a mistake 03:37:03 they have bigger ones, so the video may be from a different machine 03:37:08 right 03:37:49 still - the largest spindle they have is 2kW 03:38:17 "What's the big deal about that video, I do that by hand all day long using my 9.6V makita cordless drill." 03:38:35 well - I guess you can save the $46,800 then 03:38:45 WooHoo! rotf 03:39:07 now you can buy that new computer with all the money you saved. 03:39:20 well, getting late... gotta pack for a work trip tomorrow 03:39:33 OK - see you later 03:39:48 night all 03:39:50 jmkasunich has quit 03:40:23 I'm gonna hit the sack too 03:40:47 It's as rainy night in georgia 03:40:49 good plan - it's getting late here in the east 03:41:06 couple more degrees and it will be a snawy night 03:41:10 night all - gotta get to this accounting some day :( 03:41:12 snowy 03:41:17 later! 03:41:32 SWPadnos has quit 03:48:38 pfred1 has joined #emc 04:08:37 * Jymmm comes back and everyone has left?! 04:17:09 picnet has quit 04:44:50 picnet has joined #emc 06:07:57 K`zan has joined #emc 06:25:44 picnet has quit 06:26:20 SWPadnos has joined #emc 06:26:34 SWPadnos wb 06:26:41 hit here - thanks 06:26:50 hi there - how's that :) 06:27:01 works for me 06:27:19 actually, I'm just setting up logging, in case anything interesting happens before I make it out of bed tomorrow 06:27:22 I think I'm really gonna try the cdrom spindel 06:27:38 that should be interesting. 06:28:01 check it out =) http://www.yourtooltime.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=TAHS&Product_Code=4486C&Category_Code=MMC 06:28:33 maybe instead of jmk's brass fitting suggestion. 06:28:46 yep 06:29:27 you think direct drive or rubber band? 06:29:57 I like rubber bands 06:30:16 the only part I dont like about them is the pulleys 06:30:25 heh - those chucks are $9.99 at Home Depot. 06:30:48 yep, that guys has 21K 100% feedback on ebay 06:30:53 where low prices are just the beginning there's the low quality too! 06:31:31 SWPadnos!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :) program AVRs in C bychance? 06:31:41 rarely 06:31:51 (assembly is so much more fun :) ) 06:32:01 if fun you mean head aches... 06:32:08 I have a hard head 06:32:09 I think what I'm attempting is out of my experience. 06:32:23 well - that's how you learn 06:32:25 level of experience. 06:32:33 oh - well that could be a problem :) 06:32:39 A-L-P-H-A: World Domination? 06:32:50 no - that's the Mayflowers 06:33:09 * Jymmm sends A-L-P-H-A "World Domination For Dummies" 06:33:09 I get the blinking lights, I get the incrementation of 32 bit values (via overflow) in an 8bit system. 06:33:35 but, atmel classics don't have nice WORD functions. 06:33:37 90s2313. 06:33:45 at90s2313 06:33:45 true 06:34:07 that just makes them a little slower (and you might have to add some extra crap around multibyte move instructions) 06:34:09 I understand the binary math, on paper... but implementing them that's the hard part. 06:34:31 for instance, you can't SBIS over a word move in the non-megas 06:34:42 what I have is just a single instruction to get my RPM value. 06:34:45 sec. 06:34:52 the division routines are weird 06:35:09 add / sub / shift /AND / OR / XOR are easy 06:35:36 MUL is also easy (and even better on the megas, since there's actually a MUL instruction) 06:35:58 if I shift right, I divide by two. right? with whatever the first binary digit being the remainder 06:36:14 shift right again, 4. again 8... etc. 06:36:19 the "remainder" ends up in the carry 06:36:28 otherwise true 06:36:40 division is futile you will be approximated! 06:36:47 shift for modulus???? Interesting 06:37:01 works great for powers of 2 06:37:09 not so great for every other number 06:37:13 k, if I shift left, I multiple by 2... with the carry figured in. 06:37:26 carry is "added" 06:37:27 great for powers of two yes. 06:37:39 we shoould cut off 8 fingers on everyone then computer science would make a lot more sense to the general population 06:37:51 you have to be careful to use logical shift on the first byte, and rotate on the rest 06:38:09 There are 10 types of people in the world that understand binary. 06:38:27 (unless you want bits to drop off the bottom and end up on the top of your number) 06:38:32 now, what I need to do... is figure RPM... via clock cycles between input pulses. each input pulse is 1rev. So that's clockcycles * 60sec / CystalSpeed. which would be in my case 10MHz. 06:38:36 and those that don't 06:38:57 you can slow down the counter - use a different prescaler value 06:39:13 I can slow. 06:39:16 clock dividing is easy in hardware 06:39:28 especially when the hardware has a clock divider :) 06:39:30 yeah, I can change the CK, or the crystal. 06:39:34 either works for me. 06:39:45 nah you just divide the system clock 06:39:58 CK is the prescaler for the timerclock. 06:40:05 K`zan has left #emc 06:40:10 no - you use a prescaler on the timer - then all instructions are at full speed, but the counter/timer counts slower 06:40:13 pfred1, this is in regards to the atmels. 06:40:25 SWPadnos, 'ight, that works for me... 06:40:33 A-L-P-H-A amtel doesn't let you put other chips onboard with it? 06:40:47 my issue is the implementation, not really the math. 06:40:51 no reason to, plus you would end up slowing doen all operations 06:40:53 seems kinda restrictive to me ... 06:41:02 down 06:41:38 A-L-P-H-A you're using a prefabbed board? 06:41:47 I can increase the prescaler, that isn't a issue. 06:42:09 pfred1, trying to do 1 chip design... this is a digital tachometer. learning and trying to make something useful to me. 06:42:44 A-L-P-H-A so you're making the board? 06:42:50 the input is a IR LED and dect. with an 7404 to clean the signal to an ATMEL to an HD47780 LCD. 06:42:54 pfred1, yes. 06:43:19 A-L-P-H-A well one thing I've learned is don't rack myself over elegance when a sledgehammer will do the job 06:43:37 it's just not worth it 06:43:51 the clck probably doesn't need to be slowed down, plus it's a one-line change to do it in software 06:44:02 sticking points: implementation of math (not the math itself). Implementation of HEX to ascii (which I have the logic done as well) 06:44:18 SWPadnos, 3 bits. :) 06:44:21 heck there's LEDs with that built in 06:44:23 on one line. :) 06:44:23 and it's desirable to keep the system clock faster, since the conversion of a 32-bit number to ASCII is actually pretty time-consuming 06:44:44 pfred1, none that I could find affordable, and do 20K rpm. :) 06:44:47 anyway, what's the *real* problem? :) 06:45:23 and if it's just numbers why do you need ascii? 06:45:26 SWPadnos, I'll post my psuedo... sec. 06:45:28 Hex? or 32-bit binary? 06:45:30 OK 06:45:40 because it's displayed on a text LCD 06:45:46 I was making digital counters when I was like 12 06:45:53 great 06:46:15 man there has to be a driver chip for the display 06:46:23 http://www.pastebin.com/247260 06:46:52 BTW I'd imagine LCD would be pretty crappy in a shop angle of view and all of that 06:46:57 pfred1, uh, there is... it's called a HD47780 06:47:19 pfred1, that I don't know yet. :) 06:47:22 is power that much of an issue? 06:47:32 power to which? 06:47:36 the LCD is in his shop, free 06:47:45 I don't think it's a power issue 06:47:54 LCD = $14USD with shipping. 06:47:59 yeah that's it set yourself up for all kinds of work to save $2 06:48:05 this whole thing could be powered easily with a 9V battery... heh 06:48:07 Ah - almost free :) 06:48:16 heck LED would be cheaper then 06:48:33 way easier to work with i know that 06:48:43 I could do this via the atmel right now, via just dumping 5 bytes to the computer. and let the computer handle it all. heh. 06:48:46 and no simpler or less expensive, since the drivers are WAY more expensive 06:48:50 via an MAX232 connection. 06:48:52 looks sexier in a retro sort of a way too 06:49:03 just send out the the 4 registers, and a $00 byte. 06:49:28 you can multiplex LEDs use one decoder 06:49:37 if you're really damned cheap 06:49:49 but it is dim 06:50:13 and a pain logically 06:50:13 you still have to add power drivers 06:51:00 or a MAX7219-style chip 06:51:00 pfred1, a 10K RPM digital tackometer = $250CDN + 15% tax. My atmel + LCD + board = $20CND or so. 06:51:00 PLUS I learn stuff. 06:51:00 which also needs the binary converted to decimal (or at least BCD) 06:51:00 and it does what I WANT. And should be more than 10+ RPM without issue. 06:51:00 the amtel can't just output BCD? 06:51:00 10K+ 06:51:05 I don't know what BCD is. 06:51:10 so - one thing to do is keep numbers as large as possible, until you need to reduce them to size 06:51:12 binary coded decimal 06:51:19 numbers we're used to 06:51:30 that keeps more precision in the calculation (unless the numbers are so large they overflow) 06:51:39 oh I have code for the BIN2BCD. 06:51:41 6bc rpm doesn't make a whole lotta sense to too many people 06:51:47 it's someone elses code. 06:52:05 it's scary when it does start making sense though! 06:52:23 it works fine for RPM<=9 06:52:47 SWPadnos, with the 32 bit counter I have, it goes for 7.15SEC... so well within good stuff. 06:52:59 I got a tach for a car once in radioshack digital 06:53:03 (8.5 RPM) 06:53:05 wasn't too much money 06:53:20 hooked to the ignition coil 06:53:31 was a clock and a thermometer too! 06:53:37 probably couldn't show anything below 100 RPM though 06:53:55 yeah was 10X scale as I can recall 06:54:48 probably just a matter of cutting a trace on the board to drop it down 06:56:22 that BIN2BCD doesn't look like it'll work 06:56:32 have you tested it? 06:56:35 SWPadnos, no, but I have someone's tidbit of code that will. :) 06:56:38 picnet has joined #emc 06:56:45 Ah - I see :) 06:56:57 The example you give definitely won't work. 06:57:00 yeah it can't be that hard to code something to convert binary to BCD 06:57:08 but I know the general principal of the conversion. 06:57:09 tho a chip to do it is like 49 cents 06:57:21 remember that this is in integer land - any time you get something to the right of the decimal point, cut it off 06:57:33 pfred1, the excercise it to accomplish a simple elegant design. 06:57:36 not for 32-bit numbers 06:57:55 SWPadnos, unless I want to store them elsewhere... 06:57:58 A-L-P-H-A yeah as you age you'll get broken of that nonsense! 06:58:15 (so the 250k / 10M) = 0.25 actually = 0 06:58:43 then I'll have no accuracy what so ever then. :( 06:58:46 A-L-P-H-A do something if it's fun do it a dozen times the elegance should come if it doesn't well still should have been fun 06:58:53 that stinks. 06:58:53 true if you use that algorithm 06:59:15 dang it... in C, this would be like 50 lines max. 06:59:32 A-L-P-H-A heck most crap first time out I try to hack it up that way I figure i got a lot of room for improvement :) 06:59:42 but if you make sure you can multiply everything that needs nultiplication, then divide by everything else, it should be better 06:59:55 yeah. 07:00:04 yeah, but it wouldn't fit in a 2313 07:00:04 A-L-P-H-A machine assembler is an exersize in patience isn't it? 07:00:18 hence it's clock cycles x 60 / 10,000,000 07:00:18 (yo'd need the math library, which is probably larger than a 4414 07:00:19 (you) 07:00:27 A-L-P-H-A starting to see why sometimes it's nice to just slap a few more chips on a board? 07:00:49 pfred1, well... I did get 80%+ in my assembly course in uni. 07:00:49 no, pfred1 that's not necessary. 07:00:49 and to be honest, you're getting a little annoying 07:01:02 SWPadnos nothing is necessary beyond food clothering and shelter in my experience 07:01:05 SWPadnos, what's that number? 07:01:06 4414? 07:01:19 pfred1, love, friends. 07:01:22 4414 may not even be available any more - it's the 4K part 07:01:41 A-L-P-H-A you get cold and hungry you can lose htose real fast or trade them 07:02:02 there's a mega2313 that's pin compatible with the 2313, I think - hold on a sec 07:02:05 SWPadnos, are we talking math-co-proc? 07:02:22 I think that's BRAND new. 07:02:36 no - just a different AVR 07:03:31 nope - sorry, just tinys and the 2313s 07:03:41 anyway, this is completely doable in the 2313 07:04:14 It's a little harder though, because the multiplication routines are a bit longer 07:04:17 only reason why I'm using a 2313 is because I have 17 of them... probably more 07:04:24 that's as good a reason as any 07:04:32 I have routines for 16 bit multiplycation. 07:04:49 heh a really bad way to determine design 07:04:58 for a product, that's true 07:05:02 when you got a hammer everything starts looking like a nail 07:05:06 for a project, it's perfect 07:05:16 for a project, this 2313 can do lots. 07:05:34 and fr a product, anything bigger would be a waste of production money 07:05:39 live stack, real ram, ttl output pins. 07:05:57 two interrupts, two internal timers. 07:06:01 it's got lots to offer. 07:06:08 and is already overkill for this application. 07:06:12 serial port, analog comparator 07:06:19 PWM. 07:06:21 here's a tach using a pic http://us1.webpublications.com.au/static/images/articles/i1028/102835_10mg.jpg 07:06:40 well - if a PIC can do it, absolutely any microcontroller can do it 07:06:48 heh 07:07:17 that PIC has more than double the pins of the 2313 07:07:23 they're using an op amp to buffer the input 07:09:09 SWPadnos, I could do this right now... have it as 60,000,000 sub count, until remainder < count. 07:10:11 man this thing's pretty cool 07:10:13 but how elegant is that. 07:10:17 I'd use the /8 prescaler mode for the timer (you're using timer1, right?) 07:10:23 SWPadnos, yes. 07:10:30 then look at it in minutes from the start: 07:10:38 you get X cycles per revolution 07:10:48 A-L-P-H-A I don't care how rube something is thate's always the thrill of accomplishment 07:10:49 you have Y cycles per minute (not per second) 07:11:26 so RPM is X / Y 07:15:52 even the worst job the act of doing it you'll come up with tons more than the same effort of planning 07:15:52 so what's less effecient? 07:15:52 Y = 600 million if you use no prescaler 07:15:52 SWPadnos, but then that's only good, if I'm following, when I have a measuring phase of 60 seconds. 07:15:52 It might even be better to use the /64 mode - that'll give you roughly 10M clock ticks cycles per minute 07:15:52 phase=period 07:15:52 no - the cycles cancel out, and you're left with revolutions per minute 07:15:52 A-L-P-H-A humans don't like displays updated nearly as much as you may think they do 07:15:52 (CYC / REV) / (CYC / MIN) = REV / MIN 07:15:52 maybe twice a second 07:15:52 or it's "jittery" 07:15:52 ahh! I see. 07:15:52 this ain't Quake and frames per second ya know? 07:15:52 then you're left with one precalculated value, and one division in the program 07:15:52 but what's what I've got now, esscentially... like 60,000,000 / cycle counts. 07:15:52 in this case, with no prescaler. 07:15:52 right - you can do it that way as well - just fold the 10MHz clock and the 60sec/min into a single 600M constant 07:16:09 but, if you dont get a count of at least 600M, you'll have a zero reading - lemme think a sec. 07:16:12 well, my thing is the division... so I could do division by repetitive subtraction. 07:16:39 SWPadnos, wouldn't I have that covered in a timeout of the clock counter. 07:16:42 I have a 32-bit division routine that takes 664 cycles max (on a mega - it'll be a little longer on a 90S...) 07:17:25 664 cycles = 0.0000664 seconds. no problem. 07:17:39 rihgt - you may be able to do some averaging 07:17:42 what is that? 60 uS? 07:17:55 yep 07:18:02 0.06ms. absolutely no problem. 07:18:25 doesn't it take like 4ms to display a character anyways on an LCD? 07:18:29 I think it does. 07:18:43 it's around 40 uS max to write each character 07:18:56 several ms to clear the screen or reposition the cursor 07:19:11 k, so it's on par with calculating this. 07:19:28 (cursor may not be that long - it's been a while since I've looked at that datasheet) 07:20:05 the 32-bit BIN->ASCII conversion will be a relatively long one, but way faster than 10 divisions 07:20:14 A-L-P-H-A if you don't take into account a reasonable scrrn refresh rate this thing will be totally unreadable! 07:20:31 pfred1, that's understandable. 07:20:35 anyting past maybe 2 updates a second is rough 07:20:51 I'd suggest not clearing the screen after initialization. 07:21:16 reserve 40 bytes (yes - a third! :) ) of the RAM as a buffer for the LCD 07:21:23 http://www.crystalfontz.com/products/2004a/CFAH2004AYYBJP.pdf 07:21:27 then output the full buffer to get an update 07:21:32 lcd speeds. [not my display] 07:21:54 SWPadnos yeah that's how I eventually learned how to build displays buffer the data then gate it to the display 07:22:04 SWPadnos, not an issue, considering I don't even us any ram so far. 07:22:21 that's got a pretty fast clear 07:23:13 well - you'll be using a little for the BIN->ASCII conversion (though you can point that into the buffer somewhere) 07:23:24 A-L-P-H-A to me microcontrollers are overkill I do stuff with plain old TTL 07:24:49 TTL is too expensive these days, since many microcontrollers are $1.50 or less (the 2313 is $3.66 in single quantities from DigiKey) 07:25:17 SWPadnos it's rare i need to actually buy a chip 07:25:19 eBay is even a cheaper source, if you can find them online. 07:25:29 I have tens of thousands of them 07:25:51 but I thought what you have on the bench isn't an appropriate design criteria :) 07:26:07 lol 07:26:17 oh that's not to say that i won't buy a chip or haven't it's just the cost is not a factor 07:26:50 cost should never be a factor in a project if it's too expensive don't do it 07:27:12 if it's worth doing it's worth paying for 07:28:32 Ha - there's the problem! 07:28:41 I had nmanaged to invert my equation 07:28:49 so, explain to me, if I can make a highspeed spindle, I should go and pay $5K for one, while doing it myself, could cost like $200? 07:28:50 and didn't even notice 07:29:20 :) 07:34:09 A-L-P-H-A well how long would it take for you to make and how good would it be? 07:34:09 (CYC/MIN) / (CYC/REV) = REV/MIN 07:34:09 so you take the 600million constant, and divide it by the count from the timer 07:34:09 pfred1, that's not a discussion I'm going into. 07:34:09 SWPadnos, yup, already have that. 07:34:09 (/me is tired - it's 2:35 AM here) 07:34:09 A-L-P-H-A well can't answer your question then 07:34:09 trying to figure out how how many clock cycles I would need, if I were to do division through repeated subtraction. 07:34:09 it's O(N), not O(log n) 07:34:09 (shitloads) 07:34:09 A-L-P-H-A lots of clocks use line frequency as their timebase hint hint 07:34:09 have you joined AVR freaks yet? 07:34:09 you always knew power was delivered at 60 cps for a reason huh? 07:34:09 now you know why! 07:34:09 SWPadnos, yup 07:34:09 your line time is so accurate it'd make your hair stand on end to know just how accurate it is 07:34:09 for your silly tach it's more ahan adequete a timebase 07:34:09 Actually, it's because Nikola Tesla invented some generators that nobody could figure out, so when they went to duplicate them, they didn't want to change anything. They happened to be at 60Hz, and it stuck. 07:34:09 helps on the division just a touch too don't it? 07:34:09 have you looked at Appnote 200? 07:34:10 SWPadnos yeah right sure 07:34:25 checking 07:34:33 SWPadnos it's because they got real good tachs at the power station 07:34:41 real good 07:35:04 they deliver 60Hz (in the US), and they're required to provide you with the right number of cycles per second. 07:35:20 if they miss one in one second, they're obligated to deliver an extra one the next second. 07:35:36 yup and most plug in clocks run off it 07:35:46 it's a hell of an accurate timebase 07:35:53 second only to TV carrier waves 07:35:55 the origin is as I said, I believe. There's no reason to think that 60 Hz is any better than 50 Hz 07:36:10 it is when you're figuring out stuff ot the second 07:36:27 (in fact, 50 would be better, since 1/50 is an integer) 07:36:35 in milliseconds 07:36:50 1/60 gives a repeating decimal 07:37:15 most of us only care about a second 07:37:35 saw that appnote this morning, but I didn't look into too much cause it was 16bit, not 32. it has 32bit results, but not math. 07:38:19 ah - so it is. Well - I can see about splitting off my math routines for you. 07:38:28 you gotta admit 80 cps is a hell of a lot closer to what you need to work with than 10 MHz 07:38:32 60 even 07:39:19 or even 120 07:39:43 but it wouldn't be as accurate at high speeds 07:39:50 need to find this track... "HEar my name" armin van helden. 07:39:54 yeah this tach is a dual timebase slicer deal 07:40:10 you slice the 60 cps with the 10 MHz and window out your data 07:40:15 going back to my computer/desktop 07:40:25 vnc through laptop to desktop right now. 07:40:50 well that's how this sort of a thing is normally done at anyrate 07:42:06 the microcontroler can manage it. It could certainly be run on a slower clock - like 1 Hz or less 07:42:13 1 MHz, that is 07:42:28 one other hting I've noticed no matter what circuit I've wanted to build recently if i look on the net long enough i find it 07:42:59 I haven't actually designed something from scratch in a long time 07:43:17 the net is an amazzing resource 07:43:23 (one Z) 07:43:43 yeah I am at the point where i know that I'll never build everything i want to that's already available 07:44:43 when i cough buy some more op amps i need next is another guitar amp 07:45:22 building amplifiers is an addiction 07:45:33 excel is useless... it only allows for 8bit binary operations. 07:45:42 I'm lucky - I don't have that one :) 07:45:50 you can stop after "excel is useless" 07:46:09 you can use windows calculator 07:46:14 you make one it's little tiny distorty but you're like wow pretty soon you're looking at things in TO-3 packages going yeah 07:46:15 that's what I resorted to. 07:46:41 that'll crack the foundation 07:46:59 tubes 07:47:04 a myth 07:47:12 no - they exist 07:47:25 sure the myth is what they are capable of 07:47:45 they can havea very good sound "warm" most people think 07:47:52 for real power you gotta semiconduct 07:48:01 they're not perfectly accurate reproducers of waveforms 07:48:18 hmm... I found a link a few weeks ago, that was selling beech wood amp knobs for like $500 bucks each. 07:48:20 but hten the human ear isn't a perfect receiver of wavefoems either 07:48:28 yup it's a scam no doubt 07:48:32 too cheap for my blood 07:48:39 ignorance is a great thing to capitalize on 07:48:54 Osmium - that's what I want 07:48:56 all the people running around thinking tubes are still viable 07:49:14 and there are lots of them! 07:49:34 OK would you run your motor drivers with tubes? 07:49:59 people would laugh you out of a forum for even trying! 07:50:10 would you run your amp with a motor driver? 07:50:21 (or your speakers?) 07:50:23 if it was giving me the sound i wanted 07:50:28 speakers are motors 07:50:46 exactly - so if a tube amp gives someone the sound they want, they should have a tube amp 07:51:03 but you don't have to have one 07:51:11 if it's not your preference 07:51:14 no they shouldn't because tubes are not and haven't been for quite some time a commodity consumer item 07:51:23 the tubes you get today are crap 07:51:33 evne if at one time they did have this mystical warm sound 07:51:41 not necessarily. 07:51:51 trust me transistor tech blows tubes away 07:51:58 Radio Shack just stopped selling tubes last year or the year before. 07:51:58 in every respect 07:52:20 Except to those who prefer the sound of a tube amp 07:52:25 if you really want some antique sound they make digital modelers today you can sound like whatever you want 07:52:27 to them, it doesn't sound as good 07:52:37 it's psychological 07:52:41 probably 07:52:50 in a double blind test they'd never pick a tube over a transistor amp 07:53:01 they'd prefer the transistor for it's punch 07:53:21 tubes are mush 07:53:41 but if you like mush undrerate the power supply transformer so it sags 07:53:52 presto tube sag 07:54:08 use a crappy speaker 07:55:09 SWPadnos RS tube are available by special order 07:55:10 iirc 07:55:15 believe me I've researched all of this and worked with it tube stuff is a myth propigated by a boutique industry to profit on people's ignorance 07:55:56 if the greats had had transistor equipment back in their days they wouldn't evne have considered tubes 07:56:08 pfred1: Nope, tubes are far better than Q's 07:56:19 the oscope never lies 07:56:54 Ah - I couldn' tremember if they just got rid of them in the stores or what 07:57:07 SWPadnos: moons ago. 07:57:21 analysis of tube vs. tansistor amplification: http://www.milbert.com/tstxt.htm 07:57:23 they barely have any components anymore 07:57:37 yeah - just a few sliding drawers worth 07:57:41 I'm not sure what route I should go with this right now, try and figure out 32bit math with ASM, or just move over to C. 07:57:49 and then every color of illuminated USB cable you could ever want 07:57:55 all radio shack wants to do today is saddle you with a satelite TV subscription maybe sell you a moble phone plan 07:58:18 RS used to be a neat place, too sad. 07:58:38 I think C won't work. Wait until tomorrow - I'll post a few math routines 07:58:45 yeah all they want to do today is make money just like everyone else 07:58:50 like the tube pushers 07:59:55 if ever have an opportunity to fire up a 1000 watt HF tube linear, you won't feel the same way about that. 08:00:22 yeah I'll be able to do it for 1000th the cost with transistors 08:00:26 tubes are so so sweet 08:00:47 Jymmm how many transistor amplifiers have you built what designs have you used? 08:00:51 SWPadnos, 'ight 08:00:57 you'll never get the clean signal using Q's as you would with a tube 08:01:10 night all - it'sbeddy-bye time for me 08:01:12 pfred1: I do RF, not audio. 08:01:18 R/N ratio figures would tend to disagree with you there Jymmm 08:01:20 SWPadnos is now known as SWP_Away 08:01:44 (read the article I posted - it's good) 08:01:47 tubes can't get below .3 THD transistor amps typically display THD of .0015 08:02:08 pfred1: again, I do RF, not audio. 08:02:50 well I must admit a lot of commercial amps I have heard are not to my taste but I seem to like what i can build 08:03:06 there's some great designs out there 08:03:20 they just don't seem to end up in consumer products 08:04:21 and if you can do RF you should be able to do audio with your eyes closed 08:05:12 audio phil's are a specific breed, completely different from ham's. 08:05:54 phil's? 08:06:02 who's phill? 08:08:26 audiophiles. 08:09:19 oh I've met a few of them in my travels they're like luddites 08:09:47 all they seem to know how to do is spend money on useless crap that doesn't do what they think it does 08:10:46 here if you want to laugh hit this URL http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=audio+cable+review&btnG=Google+Search 08:10:57 bear in mind all an audio cable is is a freaking wire! 08:11:25 not exactly true.... 08:11:35 but they'll debate endlessly how one wire is better than another 08:11:52 no there's been scientific testing on how any of these wires are any better than nay others 08:12:04 and it all basically boils down to gage 08:12:43 oxygen depleted et al meaningless! 08:12:59 the signal is above the debate it seems 08:15:25 the original monster speaker cable (decades ago) had a particular reasoning in it's design. 08:15:43 http://sound.westhost.com/cables.htm 08:15:54 But after looking at their website now, it's horseshift what they have todo 08:16:00 impedance is what's actually meaningful. 08:16:10 and higher the gage, lower the impedance. 08:16:20 I refuse to prove that my cables will make your system sound better", says the snake oil vendor, "for proof denies faith, and without faith, you will hear nothing." 08:16:21 A-L-P-H-A: not necessarly 08:16:37 Jymmm, which part? 08:16:48 and higher the gage, lower the impedance. 08:16:58 looks it's like arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin it's monk's work 08:17:19 I'm not an audiophile... so I could care less. 08:17:25 as long as it sounds nice to me, I'm happy. 08:18:31 cheapest stereo enhancement I ever found smoke a joint 08:18:42 transitor radios sound good then! 08:19:15 but "audiophiles" they must be born stoned with their ideas 08:19:30 least the rest of us sober up 08:20:28 Ah, here is a brief of it (1st paragraph) http://www.monstercable.com/company_info/ 08:20:49 Theres a bigger story behind it, but I can't recall the technical detials. 08:21:00 yeah they're big fat wires 08:21:16 but for most applications zipcord is just as good 08:21:17 pfred1: oh, go smoke something! 08:22:23 Jymmm I don't need to I'm not the one thinking different wires will make my stereo sound any better 08:22:39 g'night folks! 08:22:41 Jymmm has quit 08:54:09 pfred1 has quit 09:35:20 paul_c has joined #emc 09:49:47 good morning 09:52:52 picnet has quit 10:38:57 morning 10:39:25 just checking out that dynomotion card postewd on the list 10:39:33 posted 10:39:45 using the emc interpreter 10:39:58 all I can say is wow 10:41:07 I will give those guys a call today 10:41:12 very curious 10:43:05 Ask them how much of the GPL code did they use.... 10:43:48 I wonder 10:44:06 hmm no phone number...only email 10:44:38 I think they only used the interpreter 10:44:46 Never a good sign.. 10:44:55 I see screens with the cannonicals on it 10:45:56 This is not a turn key machine control 10:47:10 internet is like being on a v. slow dial up for me at the moment.... 10:47:33 So I'll look at it (much) later. 10:47:57 heh ok 10:48:05 I had never heard of it 10:48:24 not sure if it is new or not 10:51:18 robin_sz has joined #emc 10:51:26 meep 10:51:33 hirobin 10:51:35 hi les 10:51:44 je suis en Geneve :) 10:52:09 nice skiing at the weekend too 10:52:14 right now? 10:52:25 uh huh 10:52:38 well not skiing now, obviously ... 10:52:47 I may have to go to st gallen soon 10:52:51 not sure 10:53:01 hello 10:53:03 that powder coat project coming up 10:53:17 make a change from turkey calls I guess :) 10:53:44 well that is continuing....makes it very hard to travel 10:54:10 If I'm gone...machine does not run...workers laid off 10:54:27 hmm 10:54:37 kind of jit 10:54:39 you need a machine opeartor 10:54:45 yes 10:54:46 who can sand 10:55:02 Well I hired a retired engineer part time 10:55:09 lol 10:57:40 excellent 10:57:48 Today I have to fiddle with one of the stepper tester units and get it shipped 10:58:37 I need some more USB cables 11:03:43 No turkey production till wed 11:05:33 we worked overtime last week to buy enough time to have a couple days of engineering stuff 11:06:41 well better get to it 11:06:44 later 11:09:28 picnet has joined #emc 11:25:33 hello 11:25:47 * anonimasu is sitting at the mill 11:25:51 programming a part :) 11:26:45 * paul_c is sitting at a computer programming. 11:27:32 do you have any clue about a good feedrate for milling regular iron? 11:27:43 cast ? 11:28:58 and what type of tool (HSS or carbide) ? 11:32:42 20-30m/min with HSS (depending on grade of cast iron), and 11:33:04 135-275m/min with carbide. 11:41:31 03paul_c 07bdi-4 * 10emc2/src/emc/drivers/extintf.h: Minor correction to a comment. 11:43:20 picnet has quit 11:44:43 hss.. 11:44:56 not cast iron 11:46:26 plain old EN3B mild steel - 30m/min 11:46:44 3000mm/min 11:46:53 that sounds very fast.. 11:47:33 sorry - I was looking at cutter speed. 11:47:40 ah.. 11:47:50 I can go to 4000 somwhere.. 11:48:11 cutter dia & number of teeth ? 11:48:59 6mm cutter 11:49:13 4 flute 11:49:24 dormer HSC-o XP 11:51:27 1500RPM @ 150mm/min 11:54:55 thanks :) 11:55:17 if you want to see what I am milling I'll show you when I get inside 11:55:37 OK. 12:04:16 is taking 1mm per cut too much you think? 12:06:07 Are you cutting a slot or using the side of the cutter ? 12:07:39 hm pocketing kindof.. 12:07:58 using the bottom & the side of the cutter.. 12:09:15 3mm down & 3mm across 12:09:30 IF the mill is rigid enough to take it. 12:09:36 hm, nah 12:09:48 I cant chance its a part i am re-machining, to fit.. 12:10:00 1mm down and 3mm across.. 12:10:03 will be good... 12:11:39 3mm down & 1mm across - Gives you more cutting edge. 12:12:27 lol yeah :) 12:15:41 maybe I should just get on with it.. 12:22:12 hm runs nicely 12:24:13 ok I got the skinny on that dynomotion card that uses part of emc 12:24:25 it is poorly documented 12:25:02 It appears to not be capable of being a stand alone cnc controller 12:25:24 hm.. 12:25:26 It uses a small subset of rs274 12:25:58 I have a plunge feed of 150mm/min 12:25:59 :/ 12:26:15 it's a bit hard on the machine.. 12:26:18 it has functions for cubic coordinated moves and such, but the cannonicals do not seem to use them 12:26:46 it has 16 meg memory 12:26:52 it is $399 12:27:04 uses ti dsp 12:28:30 hm.. 12:28:35 this part seems to turn out nicely 12:28:48 your cast iron thing? 12:29:25 no 12:29:28 just iron :) 12:29:57 or steel? 12:30:12 regular iron i think.. 12:30:28 hmmm 12:31:02 here iron is the term used when it is near the iron carbon eutectic 12:31:12 mild steel maybe 12:31:17 steel is used if it is near the eutectoid 12:31:54 1018 prob 12:32:04 "mild steel" 12:32:27 gummy stuff 12:32:54 welds well 12:33:16 hm.. 12:34:47 yeah 12:34:55 its the stuff you usually use when constructing things.. 12:35:02 machinery and stuff.. 12:35:14 just regular stuff.. 12:35:29 yes our ansi a-36 structural 12:35:58 yeah, about 0.2% carbon 12:36:06 yeah.. 12:36:26 36k psi yield 12:36:46 I machine a lot of it 12:37:06 use leaded if it's not to be welded though 12:37:26 About twice as easy to cut 12:37:54 god damn. 12:37:56 aasdf 12:38:08 emc took a violent cut. 12:38:43 anon told emc to take a violent cut? 12:38:57 nope... 12:39:05 hmmm 12:39:07 from z-6 to z-7 12:39:30 a 1mm plunge? 12:39:33 yeah.. 12:39:41 how fast? 12:39:49 150/0.2 12:40:27 it went 3mm down. 12:40:44 yikes 12:41:30 makes you feel a bit scared.. 12:42:01 I always am scared when I have to do the first cut of a program 12:42:32 at 5 meters/min 12:42:41 or more 12:42:57 yeah.. 12:43:15 but I cant see how emc can turn -6 -7 to a runaway Z.. 12:43:32 use foam at first to check it out 12:43:54 I do not have runaways 12:44:12 you have a servo system.. Ö/ 12:44:13 :( 12:44:25 emc told my z to go.. thats what happened.. 12:44:36 hmm 12:44:51 only one move? 12:45:03 I had like 6 passes to get down to the depth.. 12:45:11 but on the last z move it just went down too far.. 12:45:23 strange 12:45:23 err the z move before the 2 last passes.. 12:45:25 yeah 12:45:54 this on a typical vertical mill? 12:46:15 yes.. 12:46:25 pretty hefty plunge 12:46:36 yeah 12:46:39 stopped the spindle.. 12:47:31 I have to really watch stalling the spindle 12:47:51 10 kN of force will be applied 12:48:07 to prevent that I have ferror set VERY low 12:48:39 yeah.. 12:48:50 my geckos are very cheap today.. 12:50:06 running step to servo (320) ? 12:50:11 yeah 12:50:56 ooh 256 max count ferror I think....too much 12:51:15 I run 1:4 to the ballscrew.. 12:51:18 err 4:1 12:51:23 how many counts/mm? 12:51:35 1000 line encoders.. 12:51:52 thats 1000/5 on the pc.. 12:52:09 I run the step multiplier.. 12:52:45 5mm ballscrwe 12:52:47 screw.. 12:53:14 4000 per 5mm.. 12:53:15 well max ferror ought to be around .1 mm for that type 12:53:51 let's see 12:54:06 um.. emc went upwards when it should go downwards.. 12:54:12 256/1250 12:54:29 about 0.2 mm 12:55:05 :/ 12:55:23 I am getting more scared of this. 12:55:45 I did a move to -1 and now it's at 3 12:56:00 are these direction/runaway things seemingly random? 12:56:14 hm, usually in the opposite direction of a move 12:56:43 I'll be changing to emc1 soon.. 12:56:57 oh this is emc2? 12:57:02 yep.. 12:57:10 Sounds like it is not quite there yet 12:57:20 and its the last time I am running it.. until somone takes a look at the whole motion part. 12:57:45 emc1 pretty much runs flawlessly 12:57:49 or did 12:57:59 I don't use the latest build 12:58:13 but I need to set it up :/ 12:58:14 no reason to change if it is working well 12:58:17 yeah 12:58:30 I wonder if i should collect strength and run the last pass now.. 12:59:07 can you turn down the current limit on the amps? 12:59:31 yes.. 12:59:41 but not on the Z.. since thats a stepper.. 12:59:47 or I could.. 13:00:13 if 20 peak with motors that can handle it a stalled spindle creates 10kN or so 13:00:33 perhaps 30-40 considering the drive reduction 13:00:43 enough to break stuff 13:01:08 cutters for sure 13:02:07 ping! Then duck 13:02:09 yeah.. 13:02:33 hm.. it applied z-0.5830 in work offset. 13:03:12 I had a 3/8 carbide end mill slip and hit a hardened grade 8 bolt at 120 ipm 13:03:15 what a mess 13:03:25 yeah I remember when that happened.. 13:03:30 :) 13:03:41 yeah 13:05:18 Actually I ought to set my current limits lower 13:05:29 it's at 20 per axis 13:05:51 that's about 1 g 13:06:02 only running .1 or less 13:06:18 4 amps is enough for that+friction 13:10:41 hm 13:10:46 emc seems to apply z offsets.. 13:10:50 by itself.. 13:11:37 work offsets.. 13:12:09 :( 13:12:57 it did it again.. 13:14:51 once more. 13:14:58 emc1 for you 13:15:07 Z-14.5 it says. 13:15:11 good to document that stuff though 13:15:14 it was -3 in Z work offset. 13:16:09 * anonimasu sighs 13:16:17 yeah its good.. 13:16:38 but scary. 13:17:15 heh make your stuff out of urethane foam. 13:17:27 this is a piece we got from a customer at work to modufy a bit.. 13:17:46 well it did that I guess 13:17:57 it turned out ok.. 13:18:17 but well, I am not running my machine in anything harder then foam.. witgh emc2.. 13:18:44 yeah 13:19:04 I wonder how much work it is to compile emc1.. 13:19:21 I just found an error on one of my stepper multiplier boards 13:19:30 wrong box ;) 13:19:53 2.4.21-adeos should compile emc1 shouldnt it? 13:20:25 compile for me is put the tarball in a directory with a path to compile_BDI2_xx and run 13:20:33 that's it 13:20:56 or whatever that script is named 13:21:04 yep 13:21:06 hm.. 13:21:11 I'll compile it in a little bit 13:21:16 picnet has joined #emc 13:21:53 I have to get my exacto knife here and cut some traces 13:22:07 goofed up this board 13:24:02 :( 13:26:07 hm a new ver of emc downloaded 13:45:05 :/ 13:46:48 although I dont think it'll compile 13:50:22 cd rcslib/etc && ./configure 13:50:29 cd ../src 13:50:44 make PLAT=realtime && make PLAT=nonrealtime 13:50:59 paul: what kenel do you need for that? 13:51:42 any 2.4 series with the rtai patch. 13:52:05 ah nice 13:52:56 paul_c: did you read back about what I said? 13:53:14 If it doesn't work, let us know and we can tweak configure. 13:53:37 picnet has quit 13:53:45 * paul_c scrolled through some comments about emc2 13:54:16 yeah, there's somthing wrong with the motion part.. it adds Z offsets somtimes.. 13:54:48 file a bug report with the tracker. 13:55:47 I'll do that later today 13:55:50 :) 13:57:05 Do it now while the details are fresh in your mind ;} 13:58:29 lol 13:58:34 like I could forget a runaway Z.. 13:59:05 but what input triggers the fault ? 13:59:24 pretty much any.. 13:59:26 somtimes.. 13:59:38 z moves.. atleast.. 13:59:59 I made here's the code.. 14:00:14 g01 z5 y-5 f50 14:00:51 G21 & G90 at the top of the file ? 14:01:02 no.. 14:01:06 buit g90 was on.. 14:01:32 what do I do after I've compiled rcslib? 14:01:49 cd ~/emc/src 14:01:53 make PLAT=realtime && make PLAT=nonrealtime 14:02:31 ok 14:02:51 compiles nicely 14:02:52 :) 14:04:22 ´´a 14:07:02 send a note to the list (or on wiki) with the kernel ver & RT patch and on what base (Debian, RH, other) 14:08:00 yeah, Ill post the code & the stuff on the wiki.. 14:08:04 it's debian.. 14:08:16 a pretty recnent BDI.. 14:11:08 heh my father is ordering 4x scsi disks.. and a scsi raid card.. 14:11:10 :) 14:13:14 make PLAT=realtime && make PLAT=nonrealtime 14:13:15 err 14:13:23 make[1]: Target `all' not remade because of errors. 14:13:23 make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/an0n/emc/src/emcmot 14:15:44 which plat caused the error ? 14:16:06 I dont know since I ran && 14:16:12 realtime seems to compile.. 14:16:29 nope it seems like its realtime 14:16:31 run PLAT=realtime on it's own 14:16:43 make[1]: Target `all' not remade because of errors. 14:16:44 make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/an0n/emc/src/emcmot 14:16:46 yeah 14:16:47 it errors.. 14:16:56 make PLAT=realtime 2>&1 | tee err.log 14:17:01 ausr/include/sys/io.h:159: error: redefinition of `outsb' 14:17:03 /usr/src/linux-2.4.21/include/asm/io.h:426: error: `outsb' previously defined her 14:17:23 in vital.c & vti.c 14:17:31 ? 14:17:38 yeah 14:17:57 edit vti.c 14:18:16 add the following at line 38 14:18:33 #include 14:18:52 and again in vital.c at line 25 14:19:11 lemme know if the compile passes. 14:19:15 ok 14:21:04 err actually its dro.c 14:24:58 add linux/kernel.h @ line 25 14:25:35 and change 2,4,24 to 2,4,20 @ line 44 14:28:58 adidnt help 14:30:12 compi 14:30:17 compiled now 14:30:18 :) 14:30:34 OK. 14:30:54 asm/io.h & sys/io.h always causes problems. 14:32:50 making PLAT=nonrealtime now 14:34:24 SWP_Away is now known as SWPadnos 14:34:28 Hi, all 14:34:33 hi SWPadnos 14:35:22 paul_c: I see the file is finished uploading 14:35:34 * paul_c is penning a lengthy note to SWPadnos 14:35:42 uh oh :) 14:35:53 it seems to compile atleast 14:35:58 15 pages so far ;) 14:36:08 15 pages note 14:36:09 heh 14:36:12 uh - I need more coffee ;) 14:36:22 that's more like a book then a note really 14:37:11 paul_c: wouldnt it work to add #pragma once 14:37:18 before the #include's = 14:37:19 ? 14:37:25 just curious 14:37:36 wth do you want #pragma for with GCC ? 14:37:39 what pragma are you thinking of? 14:38:22 paul_c: to keep it from #including the stuff more then once.. 14:40:12 paul@Babylon-117:/tmp/linux/include/asm$ cat io.h 14:40:12 #ifndef _ASM_IO_H 14:40:13 #define _ASM_IO_H 14:40:13 # 14:40:31 yep.. 14:40:44 Each header should have the same define at the top. 14:41:12 Most (if not all) kernel & libc headers do. 14:41:28 so a #pragma is not required. 14:42:42 hm ok 14:45:43 I need rcslib.. 14:46:44 :/ 14:54:00 (funny how chatzilla thinks there's a #pragma channel :) ) 14:55:45 hehe 15:02:54 * anonimasu yawns 15:03:01 I wonder when this compile will be finished.. 15:03:19 well - it's a good thing the new BDI-4 is up - it looks like I'll need to reinstall on my emc machine :( 15:03:30 (danmed DeathStar hard drives) 15:03:56 oh 2 maxtor died on me today 15:03:58 at the same time 15:04:32 that's a pisser 15:04:47 at the luckily I had enough backup to manage.. 15:04:50 this drive had been in my windows machine, then it turned up some errors. 15:04:55 this has been a horrid day. 15:04:55 .:( 15:05:03 I woke up getting a emergency call from work.. 15:05:17 I ran IBMs DFT program, and it flagged the bad areas - I guess it wasn't aggressive enough in testing 15:05:29 I love emergency calls 15:05:37 (people are so patient) 15:05:44 mind you it's my fathers company.. 15:05:50 :( 15:06:00 so it's more like it's dead serious.. 15:06:08 "get yer ass aoutta bed and get over here" :) 15:06:20 "thanks, Dad" 15:06:23 yeah.. 15:06:25 :) 15:07:23 ill be back in a bit 15:16:40 robin_sz has quit 15:17:01 going for a reboot 15:17:07 paul_c has left #emc 15:17:10 me too soon 15:17:18 (HD dying in EMC machine) 15:19:58 ../etc/determineplat.def:49: /home/an0n/rcslib/etc/.def: No such file or directory 15:20:05 paul_c has joined #emc 15:20:13 anonimasu: you should repeat that :) 15:20:22 repeat what? 15:20:36 your last line - Paul wasn't around 15:20:41 ../etc/determineplat.def:49: /home/an0n/rcslib/etc/.def: No such file or directory 15:20:46 right - that 15:21:02 make PLAT=nonrealtime 15:21:17 I did that.. 15:21:22 I did a make install 15:21:29 plain ol' make doesn't hack it. 15:21:49 picnet has joined #emc 15:21:50 make install PLAT=nonrealtime 15:22:02 paul_c: I just read your note - I think there 15:22:05 Though why you would want to do make instal.... 15:22:17 ...there's an easy way around the sync problems 15:22:26 hm.. 15:22:30 (UT vs RT sync) 15:22:35 paul_c: I get the same error when making emc.. 15:22:35 now 15:22:37 arr 15:23:30 err.. hold on I'll get you the error when I compile emc.. 15:24:01 * paul_c waits patiently foe SWPadnos' input 15:24:22 sorry -was thinking 15:24:26 ´´a 15:24:47 sorry for being a bit stupid my head's a mess right now 15:24:52 Anyway - the shmem thing should work, and all the reader/writer in user-time does ig get the latest value 15:25:15 the RT code updates everything on a schedule determined by the hardware (and possibly CPU speed) 15:25:42 the user code reads ADCin[x], which is the latest reading 15:25:59 who cares if 1uSec later the value would have been updated? 15:26:10 it's non-RT, so it shouldn't matter. 15:26:37 then, the RT code (that deals with userspace requests) just does a read from memory (not from the hardware) 15:27:22 As for output, one thing I've done is to retain a couple of variables - a "requsted off" and a "requested on" var 15:27:27 (for bits anyway) 15:28:17 when the RT update loop runs, it grabs the present value, ANDs with ~Request_off, ORs with Request_on, and outputs the result 15:28:31 (or do the OR, then AND, if you want to prefer turning things off) 15:28:43 Ignoring the ppmc for a moment, and talking about general interface cards.... 15:29:07 rihgt - the general problem is that there is hardware in some state, and software that wants to see that state 15:29:38 the design of EMC allows each sub-section to be run on seperate computers.... Some with a realtime OS, others without. 15:29:43 so, make a copy that the software can have acces to at any time, and a driver that updates (in both directions) on is own schedule 15:30:23 a realtime memory manager.. 15:30:24 kind of.. 15:30:32 OK - so it needs to manage hardware access on a non-RT system as well. 15:30:48 and a userspace part that run ins realtime/nonrealtime and grabs values fof the manager? 15:30:57 that's OK - you just have a scheduled I/O handler - it's just not that well scheduled on a non-RT system 15:31:05 Also looking ahead to a time when rtai_shm might be dropped. 15:31:36 It doesn't need to be shmem, there can be getter/setter "methods" for all of the data 15:32:00 also, the RT (or I/O) interface should have the ability to organize data from multiple pieces of hardware 15:32:21 but userspace still sees an interfeace of "get me A/D reading number 47" 15:32:29 usr/lib -fstrict-aliasing -I/usr/include/g++-2/ -DNO_RTL -DHAVE_RTAI -o /home/an0n/emc/plat/nonrealtime/lib/vital.o ) 15:32:32 vital.c:49:21: pci/pci.h: No such file or directory 15:32:34 vital.c:68: error: parse error before '*' token 15:32:39 regardless of which physical piece of hardware (or computer) that comes from 15:32:55 anonimasu: apt-get install pciutils-dev 15:34:29 Exactly the point I was making - One standard interface regardless of h/w driver or rt/non-rt OS 15:34:41 right - I agree :) 15:35:05 the "drivers" publish the I/Os they have available on their hardware 15:36:05 for speed purposes, there could be some granularity to the published I/Os 15:36:35 like 4 A/D channels - if you have 3, then you say 3, but a block of 4 is reserved, with #4 disabled or something 15:36:58 then higher card numbers are just a shift 15:37:03 (for addressing) 15:37:36 paul_c: I am terribly sorry for asking about everything.. I hope you dont mind 15:37:47 anonimasu: piss off :) 15:38:08 * paul_c sends anonimasu a bill for consultancy time ;} 15:38:13 (I'm not paul, so I'm not qualified to say that :) ) 15:38:25 paul_c: did you write the offset part in emc2? ;) 15:38:48 Ask jmk about it. 15:38:54 lol.. I'd better not 15:39:00 after filing a bug report. 15:39:30 I'll file it as soon as I get home 15:39:51 SWPadnos: Sounds like you are wanting multiple h/w drivers talking through a single interface. 15:39:58 yes 15:40:50 I can see having a USC-like card, but maybe then wanting to use a parport for some other functions (exta outputs) 15:41:30 :) 15:42:12 Well.... The 526 only has 8 IO lines, so an extra port or two will be desireable. 15:42:15 (little things, like a light on the cabinet that indicates that the program is about to end, and the machine will need operator attention soon) 15:42:39 then the actual "program done" indication... 15:42:50 yeah 15:43:22 I'm gonna take a look around fro motion-related products at ESC 15:45:01 awww - Sensoray won't be there. bummer. 15:45:23 (I'd love to ask why they have 16 analog inputs + 16 outputs, but only 8 digital I/O) 15:45:23 hm.. 15:45:37 * anonimasu is looking after a servoamp catalogue 15:45:47 err.... four analogue outs on the 526 15:46:01 Sorry - four @ 16 bits - duh 15:46:23 but 8 inputs 15:47:00 (It's not likely that they're short on pins - that's a pretty big FPGA package) 15:47:25 BCargh.. 15:47:43 ~600$ per amp.. 15:47:47 err 15:47:48 for 2 amps 15:47:55 isel.. servoamps.. 15:48:54 Either you are trying to add feature creep, or you are after HAL. 15:49:50 hm.. I'll be at 900$ with the vital card.. 15:49:58 + 100 for the shipping of that.. 15:51:22 and import duties 15:51:40 yep.. 15:51:46 so much for my little cheap mill.. 15:53:19 hmmm - I'm just looking through the docs for the Motorola DSP56F805 - it has some cool features for servo control 15:53:32 /tmp/ccDDdCTM.o(.text+0x4d): In function `LS7266Init': 15:53:32 /home/an0n/emc/src/emcmot/dro.c:136: undefined reference to `outb' 15:53:54 but at least you have the hardware ready for the Yasaki 15 axis machining center. 15:54:18 the quadrature decoder has a 32-bit position counter, 16-bit position difference register, fast (40MHz) counting, and timing between phase transitions (for more accurate low speed measurements) 15:54:21 yeah :) 15:54:25 I may have to fiddle with that a bit 15:54:54 anonimasu: Delete emc/plat/* and do the makes again. 15:55:17 fixed it. 15:55:30 I readded the includes I removed before.. 15:55:41 :) 15:56:04 not that I'll ever be able to pay for a machining centre.. 15:56:20 ever.. 15:56:20 :) 15:56:31 If you stop eating, and start saving now, then maybe by the time you retire you'll be able to get one :) 15:56:44 they are dirt cheap for second hand ones. 15:56:45 lol.. 15:56:54 how cheap is that? 15:57:01 did you see the high-speed machining video I posted last niught? 15:57:05 no 15:57:13 * paul_c could have had a BP426 for less than £5,000 15:57:31 bp426? 15:57:38 how many $ is that.. 15:57:38 (at least, that's waht I think the model was) 15:57:48 > 30000? 15:57:58 go here: http://www.datrondynamics.com/ click on the camera on the left side of the page 15:58:10 $9300 15:58:26 (only $46,800 each - what a bargain) 15:58:32 that's still about what a new car would cost me :/ 15:58:53 SWPadnos: nice price 15:59:08 *watching now* 16:00:18 I am going to sell my mill. 16:00:45 realtime & nonrealtime is compiled now 16:01:00 * anonimasu sighs 16:01:05 I am jealous of that machine 16:05:04 ;) 16:07:19 SWPadnos has quit 16:11:06 SWPadnos has joined #emc 16:11:19 phew - back from the dead 16:12:05 what did I miss? (my machine spontaneously rebooted when I went to watch that video) 16:15:47 We got as far as tossing up HAL v Feature creep. 16:16:06 Ah - I think I was here for that :) 16:20:48 * paul_c disappears for ten. 16:27:37 brb - upgrading chatzilla 16:27:39 SWPadnos has quit 16:31:38 SWPadnos has joined #emc 16:32:03 Ahhh - so much better 16:35:19 * paul_c does a cvs co on rtai (all of it) 16:35:36 including Fusion, or just the stable branch? 16:37:05 the 2.6.10 r9c5 patch will be out tomorrow 16:37:29 cool. I guess there'll be another BDI download soon :) 16:37:39 and a 2.6.11 candidate as soon as the kernel is released. 16:38:27 do you think space could be macde on the BDI disc for qt / gtk dev tools? 16:38:51 (asking because kernel make xconfig or make gconfig doesn't work for me) 16:39:20 hm.. 16:39:28 no room left for qt/gtk dev libs. 16:39:40 :/ 16:39:42 hm.. 16:39:45 time to see if emc runs.. 16:39:49 You still have menuconfig 16:40:14 true - that's what I've been using to prove out my "kconfig style comfigurator" idea 16:40:26 *holds thumbs* 16:40:45 anonimasu: twiddle them - it's more fun 16:40:52 hehe 16:41:48 I would like to see some of the options that are available in the graphical ones though - such as "show all options" and the like 16:42:12 rtai_sem: Device or resource busy 16:42:12 rtai_shm: Device or resource busy 16:42:26 maybe I should reboot before I try this.. 16:42:51 or run the non servo2go .run file 16:43:07 generic.ini 16:43:09 yep 16:45:23 dosent start 16:45:30 hmmm - I should look at which computer I'm typing "startx" on :( 16:46:37 it looks like Bad Things happen when X is already running, and you tell it to start again from an ssh session 16:47:38 hehe 16:48:18 gui no-workie 16:51:21 OK... Major changes to shared memory handling in Fusion. 16:51:45 I noticed that the headers were different - I couldn't compile EMC with it 16:52:06 Not just the headers. System calls too. 16:52:34 right - various functions were missing, then I had the bright idea of installing a supported version, and it worked much better 16:52:39 hm bbaib need to run out and reboot the box at the mill.. 16:53:50 hmmm - do you suppose a failing hard disk could cause kdmgreet to SIG11? 16:56:15 sig11 - Seg fault 16:56:23 and of course, the apt cache is where the HD problem is. 16:56:37 yes - it's a big bummer 16:56:52 either a duff memory stick 16:57:13 no - an IBM DeathStar hard drive. 16:57:18 grind grind grind grind 16:57:22 click! 16:57:27 grind grind grind grind 16:58:13 I guess I need to attach a floppy drive so I can get my few files off this machine 16:58:50 (good thing the devtools are on BDI-4.18 :) ) 16:59:08 is there an option iduring install to install "EMC Development" stuff? 17:00:33 reef has joined #emc 17:00:43 hello all 17:00:59 hello, reef 17:01:22 I'm checking this chat for the first time, 17:01:42 actually this is the first irc chat i've ever done. 17:01:57 what goes on usally 17:02:20 I got this link from linuxcnc.org 17:04:12 funny - I had never used IRC until 3 weeks ago - also for EMC 17:04:51 This is a forum for users and developers of EMC. If you have questions and/or sugestions, this is one place for them 17:05:10 http://www.cantrip.org/nobugs.html 17:05:25 it looks like from the header i recieved upon entering that there is a regular meeting at 14:00 gmt 17:05:35 what is that in central time? 17:05:45 On Sundays, yes 17:07:04 hm.. 17:07:20 08:00 17:07:21 I hopeoastarting EMC IO PROGRAM -- minimillio...can't run minimillio program 17:07:21 The file plat/nonrealtime/bin/minimillio does not exist or is not executable. 17:07:24 heh 17:07:25 nice.. 17:08:09 Did minimillio get compiled ? 17:08:14 makeI think it did.. 17:08:17 but its not in the bindir.. 17:08:29 I did a make PLAT=nonrealtime again.. 17:08:32 (the symlink got created - Else run would have barfed on inivar) 17:08:46 where can I get source code for emc and is it available for Visual C++? 17:08:51 /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lXaw 17:08:59 absolutely not available for VC++ 17:09:06 it runs on Linux 17:09:30 hence the website LinuxCNC.org 17:09:41 only a sick puppy would even consider trying to run EMC on M$ 17:09:47 hehe 17:09:57 like Alex.... 17:09:59 (or art or fred :) ) 17:09:59 Does it not run on windows because of the real time restriction only. 17:10:07 Are there ways around that 17:10:11 lots of reasons 17:10:17 reef: not really 17:10:22 * paul_c doesn't *do* M$ 17:10:23 there are CNC controlprograms for Windows - this isn't one of them 17:11:10 O.K. So it's strictly linux, is it in C/C++ 17:11:50 For the most part. 17:11:58 Some Tcl/Tk 17:12:04 and a python addon 17:12:26 Oh, and some java extras for the real sickos 17:12:33 paul_c: did you read the response letter to that interview? - more funny stuff 17:12:52 now lets see 17:13:07 * SWPadnos swaps hard drives, prepares for a new BDI install 17:13:09 no, it did compile nonrealtime but minimillio seems to be missing 17:13:39 nml_mod.cc 316: !ERROR! Error Log channel is invalid. 17:13:41 not working.. 17:14:23 got ssh in to the box so I can poke around ? 17:14:28 java, that's insane... 17:14:56 paul_c: yes, if you wait a bit I'll forward a port to it.. 17:15:05 reef: No, not insane, just the product of some very sick minds. 17:15:52 Are they just trying to complicate things. 17:17:27 Fortunately, the java stuff is not a requiirement to compile or run EMC. 17:18:12 SWPadnos: http://www.bitwizard.nl/sig11/ 17:18:51 Oh yeah - I know what a SIG11 is - I'm swapping out the faulty HD now 17:19:14 reef has left #emc 17:24:13 paul_c: does it work? 17:37:21 Jymmm has joined #emc 17:38:16 Jymmm me old fruit 17:38:26 paul_c: I assume that BDI-4 is based on Debian-testing, since it has kernel 2.6 17:38:36 paul_c: your a prune? 17:38:51 raisin - california 17:39:12 Jymmm: What would you say to a 110W laser in the Bay Area ? 17:39:22 too easy :) 17:39:29 paul_c tease 17:39:37 haha 17:40:56 http://evilurl.com/deaddeathsuck 17:42:40 what can I say.. 17:42:43 cute ^_^ 17:44:04 paul_c: what is the "kernel-kbuild-2.6.3" package in the BDI 4.18 install? 17:44:06 paul_c: it's 440 3-phase, I saw it on Saturday in person. 17:44:15 paul_c: But thank yu very much 17:44:40 rotary phase converter + step-up tansformer + *very* thick wires and a big circuit breaker, and you'rea ll set :) 17:44:46 hehe 17:45:00 SWPadnos A PART MENT 17:45:12 yeah - so, just don't tell anyone 17:45:31 SWPadnos: Not the problem, there is no 440 in the bldg 17:45:38 (I'm sure nobody will notice the lights dimming as you start up the 20HP rotary phase converter :) ) 17:45:40 and it's 3 ph 17:45:45 lol 17:45:48 lol 17:49:03 * SWPadnos drums fingers waiting for BDI install 17:49:39 SWPadnos: it be done by now if you hadn't teased me =) 17:49:43 paul_c: shall we continue on the driver topic? 17:49:47 so HA! 17:49:54 Jymmm: true - and for that I'm eternally shamed 17:50:03 * Jymmm chuckles 17:50:07 (not that I teased you - that it would be done by now) 17:50:16 :) 17:54:17 K`zan has joined #emc 17:54:30 picnet has quit 17:59:09 * SWPadnos thinks the BDI install would be a little faster if I hadn't selected everything 17:59:16 I think paul is busy playing around with my box ;) 17:59:27 hey - keep that to yourself :) 17:59:53 SWPadnos: dont you want more intimate details? 17:59:55 :/ 18:00:00 (and no "I didn't lnow you were a girl" jokes!) 18:01:08 So Jymmm how did you like your discussion with pfred1 last night? 18:03:31 * Jymmm has no comment. 18:03:59 right -" if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything" :) 18:04:29 those are your words, not mine 18:04:47 true - they are 18:05:11 I had gotten a little bit annoyed when trying to get A-L-P-H-A's AVR project up and running 18:05:27 with ASM or c ? 18:05:57 bbiab.. food 18:06:07 ASM 18:06:13 FWIW... I found out that the shaft on my auto centerpunch fits the rollerskat blades perfectly 18:06:21 32-bit divides got him down :) 18:06:29 ^bearings 18:06:41 cool - what is the bearing number? 18:07:09 608zb 18:07:20 hmm - I don't recognize that one 18:07:34 thats teh only marking on it 18:07:55 right - I think the standard bearings are usually 4 digits 18:08:15 Also found out that these bearings will NOT fit on the shaft of a dremel 18:08:37 --><-- much too large 18:09:18 like these: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7136883585 18:10:13 oh no, these are cheapies 18:10:26 less than $6 / 16 ? 18:10:36 sorry - $7/16 18:10:51 long time ago had bought a pair of skates that were on clearnacne for $8 18:11:05 rip the bearings, chuck the skates =) 18:11:59 $8 for shipping?! wtf 18:12:07 these are expensive (and not that great either): http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PARTPG=NNLMK32&PMPXNO=5405786 18:13:01 well, I'll stick with the skate bearings if im going to do this. 18:13:10 yes indeed 18:14:04 heh, now I have to clear off my bench to take apart the cdrom drive! lol 18:14:38 SWPadnos? annoyed at me? 18:14:46 not in the slightest 18:14:58 (more the peanut gallery suggesting adding chips to your tach) 18:15:05 I was a little annoyed at the pfile guy 18:15:11 *yes* 18:15:20 pfred1 18:15:23 I was polite about it though. 18:16:23 the good new is that my divide routines don't use any mega-only instructions 18:16:27 news 18:16:55 the multiplication ones do, though -you shouldn't need those, so I've stripped them out 18:18:49 A-L-P-H-A: grab http://www.cncgear.com/Files/division.asm 18:19:44 ohoh! divide32_16. :) 18:19:48 perfect. :) 18:20:06 actually - that's a divide 32_32, but it just clears the high word for you first :) 18:20:19 use divide_32 for your application 18:20:24 oops - divide32 18:20:35 ahh. 18:21:02 since you don't care about the execution time, you can also remove the longtoASCII routine from the other file 18:21:24 just do repeated division by 10, and push the remainder on a stack 18:21:27 so it's load the words for A and B, call DIVIDE32 so the result is = AH:AL / BH:BL ? 18:21:40 yes 18:22:05 actually, it's AUH:AUL:AH:AL / BUH:BUL:BH:BL 18:22:35 k, so I gotta define AUH, AUL, etc. 18:22:37 stored in CUH:CUL:CH:CL, with remainder in AUH:AUL:AH:AL 18:22:49 yes - those are the same 12 registers the other code uses :) 18:23:47 If you load EBX (all the B registers) with 10, you can do repeated calls to the divide routine to get successive digits for printing 18:24:12 (in cl) 18:25:16 actually, once you've done the first divide (600 million / counter), you'll be left with a 16-bit number of RPM (less than 16 probably) 18:26:03 SWPadnos doesn't seem too shabby http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7120694702&ssPageName=MERC_VI_RSCC_Pr4_PcN__Stores 18:26:15 no - I'm not too shabby :) 18:26:27 SWPadnos no, you are shaggy! 18:26:29 yep - same guys 18:26:45 I bought 10 6204s from them, they're OK. 18:26:47 $0.45/ea 18:26:54 incl shipping 18:27:16 slightly better than $1.50 with shipping) 18:27:18 dang, those are chip bearings. 18:27:39 walmart and kmart here I come.... $0.15/ea!!! cross-fingers 18:27:42 eeerk $19.95 shipping?!?! 18:27:50 200 bearings 18:27:51 err. $30 for me. 18:27:59 ooooooooooh. 18:28:03 I thought it was the 16 18:28:37 hey, yard sale... $2/16 of em =) 18:28:38 $0.50USD each. to Canada 18:29:02 12.5 cents each =) 18:29:05 they're abec 7... you could sell them for more. :) 18:29:59 There's another company witha similar name, that has linear bearings as well. 18:30:06 oh it is him. 18:31:18 SWPadnos, so are you saying EAX / $00 00 00 10 ? 18:31:39 EBX = $00:00:00:0A 18:31:47 (10 decimal) 18:31:48 oh that 10. :) 18:32:00 uless you want to output RPM in hex :) 18:33:32 If you want the tach to work up to say 30KRPM (future-proof :) ), that will be the smallest count, so the smallest divisor 18:34:26 That's 20K cycles you should be counting, minimum. 18:34:40 yeah. 18:34:47 you can check for counts below that, and print "Danger Will Robinson" or something 18:34:59 hehe 18:35:08 the higher the count, the lower the result of the long division 18:35:34 so you can then use the divide16_8 routine to do the ASCII conversion 18:35:47 (since 10 fite in 8 bits, and 30K fits in 16 bits) 18:36:25 10 fits, of course :) 18:36:49 yup 18:37:24 65K rpm could fit 18:37:35 it only reduces the time by 3X, and time isn't critical here. You could do without the 16_8 division routine to save space 18:37:58 yes it could - you could limit it to 60K, for nice human readable limits :) 18:37:59 I think I'll have a ton of space left... and this will be a stand alone. 18:38:58 hey - 20 words is 2-0 words :() 18:38:59 :) ;) :0 - whatever 18:38:59 he 18:38:59 h 18:39:03 I must get the heater fixed 18:39:58 I like the emoticon graphics much better in chatzilla 0.9.67 vs. 0.9.61 18:40:18 <-- using mirc. 18:41:09 hmm - what's better about it? (or are you just used to it?) 18:41:47 I've been using it since windows it came out really. So I've been using it for a long long time. 18:42:07 windows 95 18:42:09 Ah - I just noticd that it's shareware, so I think I'll stick with Chatzilla on this machine :) 18:43:33 I'm just used to it. that's all. 18:45:12 "warranty void if seal broken" "Um my dog ate it, yeah that's it, my dog ate it" 18:49:51 oh that's slick.... instead of putting heat sinks on certain SMD IC's, they tossed on a bit of heatsink grease on them and engineered it so the outter case becomes the heat sink. 18:50:49 gecko's do that. 18:55:14 oh that reminds me....I have to put some sinks on this 5804 stepper driver before I firer it up 18:55:37 couple little copper tabs soldered to the leadframe will do 18:56:03 1 amp 17v from a 14 dip 18:56:16 could get a little warm 18:57:05 mighty warm, I'd say 18:58:23 les come on, be a man about it, it's only 17watts use your thumb for a heat sink! 18:58:59 real men use ice cold beer cans for heat sinks! 18:59:06 then they melt them =) 18:59:19 together 18:59:28 U CAN DU THAT!!!??!! 18:59:41 REAL men do NOT drink frozen beer !! 18:59:42 KEWL!!!! 18:59:52 UR2KEWL4ME!!! 19:00:05 haha 19:00:31 I am about to turn this thing on and see if the smoke comes out 19:00:44 usb stepper 19:01:09 ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww 19:01:37 it's a test station for calbrating my encoders 19:01:46 has feedback though 19:02:01 * Jymmm hate USB for things like that 19:02:05 use slipped steps to detect the detents 19:02:31 oh usb is too slow for cnc and such 19:02:40 works for this 19:02:52 USB polls, that's the problem 19:03:04 anyway the boards cost $500 for 5 19:03:19 the testers are going out the door for 15k 19:03:47 Does anyone know what "les' stands for? 19:03:59 'les' == I HATE YOU! 19:04:11 I had to make a step multiplier and 5804 based driver thgough 19:04:13 haha 19:04:32 actually these things were way too much work 19:04:49 for 15k, think you would do it again?! 19:05:00 hmmm 19:05:06 if the same yes 19:05:07 just nod 19:05:27 If I had to design a new system....I dunno 19:05:42 LES LES LES 19:05:56 I did this for a set price 19:06:12 heh 19:06:19 that was a mistake 19:06:34 fixed bid == mistake 19:06:46 (it's a mathematical identity :) ) 19:06:59 very true this time 19:07:25 I think I put in...oh...300 hrs on these things 19:07:39 make twice as much with the silly turkey calls 19:07:53 and they are silly :) 19:08:06 $15,000 / 300 hours = $50/hr LES LES LES 19:08:24 less expenses - that's not a great rate 19:08:49 It sucks 19:08:57 ok I screwed up this time 19:09:09 smoke? 19:09:18 no thanks 19:09:20 haha 19:09:24 heh 19:09:36 smoke will come soon 19:10:10 I am waiting for some epoxy to dry befor I power em up 19:10:18 out of 5 min stuff 19:10:23 had to use 2 ton 19:11:05 Then I have to drive 40 miles to mail em at ups 19:11:23 15k shipping insurance will be a bit 19:11:45 bet the hand carry stuff like that 19:11:51 they 19:12:14 no - they're just more careful when they throw it around :) 19:12:18 haha 19:12:34 K`zan has left #emc 19:13:08 well back to soldering on the heat sinks and setting this up 19:13:13 Imperator_ has joined #emc 19:14:16 paul_c: Oh, I just remember that I have forgotten something :-) 19:14:34 iab 19:14:55 hm ? 19:15:09 what did you remembert that you forgot? 19:15:16 (if you can remember) 19:15:38 les: you have your own hate-fan-club ;) 19:15:50 to move Pauls new BDI to the downloadlocation 19:16:02 what's the question? 19:16:17 do you have the URL for the seed server? 19:16:43 and to free the harddisk that Paul can download the rest of the file 19:16:52 ähh upload 19:17:12 There's a copy of bdi-4.18 on my webspace 19:17:22 ah ok 19:17:34 my ftp disk was full 19:17:38 http://www.cncgear.com/EMC/BDI/ 19:17:52 Ah - that's why the upload failed midway through :) 19:18:05 feel free to pull it from there when you have the space 19:18:24 ok, i mirror it 19:18:30 tomorrow 19:18:32 (I'm curious about how well their servers handle the load) 19:18:34 * anonimasu is test running a program on emc1 19:18:49 hows server ? 19:18:58 I've been wondering - roughly how many BDI downloads per month are there? 19:20:21 I m not a specialist in apache log files, but I have a lot of downloads. But the most of them donloaded only the first 50MB 19:20:58 or i would like to say they interrupted after a wile 19:21:31 OK - I'm wondering how an "open" BDI mirror would impact my transfer limits 19:22:33 what's your limit ? 19:22:42 192GB/month 19:22:51 (roughly 250-300 full BDIs) 19:23:12 but I'd like to have some available for other things once I get the websites up and running 19:23:22 cradek has quit 19:23:34 hehe my limit is the 100Mbit ethernet card :-) and the 80MB Harddisk 19:23:39 cradek has joined #emc 19:24:00 yeah - that would be the ticket :) 19:24:14 better than 7680MB storage / 192GB transfer 19:24:28 yup 19:24:55 I like the transfer speeds from a hosting company better than my 256k ADLS upstream rate though 19:24:57 ADSL 19:25:10 acemi has joined #emc 19:25:22 have only 128bit at home 19:25:49 upstream 19:25:58 does anyone know what packages need to be installed on BDI to be able to use the kernel "make xconfig" or "make gconfig" 19:25:59 ? 19:26:18 nope 19:26:28 well - that's no help :) 19:27:10 but use the debain utility for package selection, I think you will find the one you need 19:27:27 hm.. 19:27:36 do I just set my input_scale to whatever I used in emc2 19:28:08 I have a debain server running at work, but it runs so fine that I have forgotten how all the utilitys are named :-) 19:28:54 stepgen.0.position_scale= 19:29:09 where do I put thoose values in emc1? 19:29:14 I would think stepgen params would be for output scale 19:29:18 emc.ini 19:29:33 SWPadnos: ah thanks.. 19:29:48 but don't quote me :) 19:29:56 OUTPUT_SCALE = 1000.000 0.000 19:30:01 and what does the second value do? 19:30:09 hm *grabs the wiki* 19:30:11 offset 19:30:20 hm.. 19:30:33 ok 19:30:43 I dont quite get what you do with that 19:31:48 it would be used for an analog servo amp that has a voltage offset 19:32:06 ah ok 19:32