00:01:22 <paul_c> Imperator_: You still up ?
00:02:03 <Imperator_> * Imperator_ has downloaded the Xilinx software and designs a EMC-CHIP :-)
00:02:06 <Imperator_> jup
00:02:32 <Imperator_> you need a FTP-Server ?
00:02:45 <paul_c> You want the latest ?
00:05:39 <Jymmm> jmkasunich large amounts... 100's of pallets worth
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00:26:02 <rayh> paul_c: See you lost the smut folk.
00:26:51 <A-L-P-H-A> hmm... binary division by repeated subtraction.
00:26:55 <A-L-P-H-A> that's ONE way of doing things.
00:29:31 <anonimasu> hm yeah
00:29:33 <anonimasu> a nice one
00:30:24 <danfalck> hi ray
00:30:33 <paul_c> rayh: I banned them when they asked me for ops
00:36:27 <rayh> Okay.  They didn't want much.
00:37:36 <rayh> Got a question regarding your response to the question, "do you like hardcore sex?"
00:38:11 <rayh> Was "one more crack like that and you're out of here." what I think it was.
00:38:34 <paul_c> wisecrack
00:38:34 <gezr> buahajhahahahaha
00:38:38 <gezr> whats this about?
00:38:52 <gezr> * gezr went on a trip to his dads today
00:39:47 <rayh> There were a couple of shills for a porn site that got in a while ago.
00:39:49 <paul_c> Bike ?
00:40:13 <gezr> rayh : oh, nothing like a good kick ban 
00:40:23 <rayh> Great sport.
00:40:24 <gezr> paul_c : na, had to go up and see him, and get a chainsaw
00:40:50 <rayh> Does anyone know if configure works with emc1 and 2.20b?
00:41:11 <paul_c> No it doesn't
00:41:42 <paul_c> I just hacked it for rtai.
00:42:11 <rayh> Darn.
00:42:16 <paul_c> Headlines: Man on motorcycle with chainsaw hunted.
00:42:25 <gezr> hahahahaha
00:43:15 <gezr> man working on motorcycle confuses drive shaft with his own, doctors working hard to fix the piston
00:43:20 <paul_c> rayh: Maybe I'll boot bdi-2 up and give it a go.
00:43:32 <paul_c> Shouldn't take much.
00:43:36 <rayh> I'll try it here in a few minutes.
00:43:50 <rayh> Working a test on live rc46 at the moment.
00:44:21 <paul_c> gezr: I still have ops ;ş
00:50:30 <paul_c> OK. Time for bed. Catch you all in the morning.
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00:51:05 <rayh> see you.
00:51:48 <Imperator_> cu
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01:16:54 <les> anyone home?
01:18:27 <les> oh well...later
01:30:57 <anonimasu> yes
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01:47:37 <roel> hi
01:51:49 <anonimasu> :)
02:11:48 <roel> i'm off bye
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07:26:35 <asdfqwega> Jymmm:  If you're still about, you can ask robin_sz or myself about the diff between Co2 and YAG lasers
07:27:08 <Jymmm> Inquiring minds want to know
07:27:48 <Jymmm> I have it that CO2 are "general purpose" but nor sure on the YAG
07:28:28 <asdfqwega> Oh, you're here :)
07:29:10 <asdfqwega> Okay, besides the working requirements of solid state vs. gaseous lasers...
07:29:25 <asdfqwega> Co2 has a much longer wavelength than YAG
07:29:31 <Jymmm> ok so YAG is solid state?
07:31:07 <asdfqwega> YAG is a cousin of the ruby laser - it uses a solid rod of YAG, pumped by externel flashlamps, arc lamps, or diode lasers
07:32:01 <asdfqwega> You'd have to look up what YAG is  - All I can remember is Yttrium-something-something
07:32:10 <Jymmm> that's fine
07:32:26 <Jymmm> dont care about its make as much as it potential
07:32:32 <Jymmm> makeup
07:32:40 <asdfqwega> BUT - that difference in wavelength makes all the difference in what you can use it on
07:33:09 <Jymmm> I have an opportunity to buy a yag over a co2. but I dont know what my limitations/benefits are
07:33:26 <asdfqwega> co2 is very good for use on organic or carbon-based compounds - wood, rubber, etc
07:34:19 <asdfqwega> YAG is better on metals than a co2
07:35:00 <Jymmm> ok, a 40watt CO2 cut thru 1/4" soft wood. what could a 40watt yag do?
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07:35:15 <asdfqwega> robin_sz uses YAG, I work with co2
07:35:37 <Jymmm> yours is 10watt, isn't it?
07:35:55 <asdfqwega> Yeah, and I'm cutting through 1/4" hardwoods
07:36:18 <Jymmm> with 10watts? how clean/slow is that? how is it on acrylic?
07:37:31 <asdfqwega> Right now I'm just using a homemade 3-axis stepper-driven router to move the laser around, I don't have the IPM to really work on acryllic
07:37:47 <Jymmm> ipm?
07:37:51 <Jymmm> oh inches
07:38:05 <asdfqwega> For frosting and stuff
07:38:10 <Jymmm> so you cant travel fast enough?
07:38:24 <asdfqwega> I can cut it - low power multiple passes
07:38:40 <Jymmm> ewwwwwwww
07:38:42 <asdfqwega> The problem is heat buildup
07:38:47 <Jymmm> yeah
07:38:58 <Jymmm> you need more power and a faster travel
07:39:17 <Jymmm> what kind of screws are you using?
07:39:29 <asdfqwega> Well, 10W would be OK with a faster machine - I'm working on building a flying optics table
07:39:54 <Jymmm> you using belts and whatnot?
07:39:56 <asdfqwega> 3/8"-10 ACME
07:40:20 <Jymmm> 3/8"-10 isnt' very fast is it?
07:40:20 <asdfqwega> I'm going to be using belts on the 2nd-gen machine
07:40:38 <asdfqwega> 25 IPM max
07:40:45 <Jymmm> ewwwww
07:41:03 <Jymmm> how come so slow?
07:41:25 <asdfqwega> What are you going 'ewwwww' for?
07:41:44 <Jymmm> it's slow
07:42:07 <A-L-P-H-A> anyone want some randomness? http://bash.org/?460408
07:42:31 <Jymmm> asdfqwega: I'm not doing milling, just router/laser
07:43:07 <Jymmm> asdfqwega: I'm also considering fiber instead of mirrors.
07:43:29 <asdfqwega> With co2, you can only use mirrors
07:43:36 <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, found a LAAAAser  [austin powers]
07:43:49 <asdfqwega> With YAG, you can use fiber
07:44:13 <Jymmm> asdfqwega: Thus my inq to Yag's
07:44:45 <A-L-P-H-A> I hope that reference wasn't lost upon all.
07:45:15 <asdfqwega> ALPHA:  You have to do the "finger quotes in the air" to complete the effect
07:45:23 <Jymmm> lol
07:46:23 <A-L-P-H-A> I don't know how do do the fingers on irc. :/
07:46:49 <Jymmm> ,.|..
07:46:51 <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, so you found a <finger emphasis motion> LAAAAser </finger emphasis motion>
07:47:06 <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A working on it
07:53:12 <asdfqwega> ALPHA:  bash.org - heh, I've heard all these before
07:55:01 <asdfqwega> ALPHA:  Let's see if you know this one:  "Let me put on my wizard hat."
07:55:49 <A-L-P-H-A> sounds like a line from family guy... but I don't know.
07:56:24 <asdfqwega> Oooh, let me find the link
07:56:40 <A-L-P-H-A> http://bash.org/?1988 hahahaha
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08:05:43 <asdfqwega> ALPHA:  Can't find the specific link, but you can google 'bloodninja wizard hat'
08:05:45 <asdfqwega> http://www.programmingforums.org/forum/archive/index.php?t-969.html
08:06:16 <asdfqwega> cybering gone horribly WRONG, heheheheh
08:08:15 <A-L-P-H-A> OMG! I read that long long time ago
08:08:18 <asdfqwega> * asdfqwega rocks to some Stone Ale and :wumpscut:
08:09:04 <asdfqwega> You did?  How could you forget the wizard hat?!
08:13:46 <A-L-P-H-A> asdfqwega, years ago
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08:26:06 <asdfqwega> It's been a couple years since I last read about Bloodninja - I'm surprised nobody's hunted him down and shot him
08:34:16 <asdfqwega> * asdfqwega puts on some Hawksley Workman
08:40:08 <A-L-P-H-A> asdfqwega, I just read some more recent ones.
08:40:22 <A-L-P-H-A> I haven't read the other stuff, just read them now.
08:40:27 <A-L-P-H-A> so funny odd shit.
08:55:14 <asdfqwega> http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/laserburn.html
08:55:29 <asdfqwega> I like the warning label
09:02:27 <asdfqwega> Whoo-hoo!  Hot shit!  2'x3'x6" granite plate for $100?!  I'm driving up there right now!
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11:18:12 <anonimasu> hm..
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12:35:36 <les> hi paul
12:35:46 <les> ha finally got fred to respond
12:36:21 <paul_c> yup - and the last post triggered a couple of emails from the moderator.
12:36:48 <les> I did not think it was all that off topic really
12:37:30 <asdfqwega> I haven't read CCED in months - anything worth looking over?
12:37:40 <les> A free hard real time operating system is kinda on topic
12:37:45 <paul_c> should have pointed out the involvement of IBM, HP, and a number of other companies...
12:38:12 <les> just silly stuff asdfqwega
12:38:15 <paul_c> Then there are outfits like Pixar running linux for apps that M$ can only dream of....
12:38:23 <les> did you get that surface plate?
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12:38:38 <asdfqwega> Are they still doing flame wars over stepper vs. servo?
12:39:06 <asdfqwega> les:  Not yet.  I have to check to see if I can wedge it into the back of my wagon
12:39:13 <les> off and on
12:39:24 <asdfqwega> IF I can pick it up :/
12:39:42 <les> I think those low cost plates are b grade..but you can lap them even better
12:40:02 <les> if you make a home made autocollimator
12:40:15 <asdfqwega> No, this is a used plate - but I'm going to use it as a machine base
12:40:16 <les> still b grade is pretty good
12:40:49 <les> I have one b grade and one lab grade...and a lab grade granite square
12:41:22 <asdfqwega> I have a 9"x12" I grade B, I think
12:41:40 <les> actually not granite...at least the black ones
12:42:00 <asdfqwega> Oh?  What's the black ones made of?
12:42:43 <les> a low silica mineral...hang on let me get the geological name
12:42:58 <asdfqwega> paul_c:  My brother is going to get a tour of Pixar when he leaves to go to E^3
12:44:40 <asdfqwega> les: http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/Detail.asp?PartNum=03-534-017
12:46:25 <asdfqwega> Well, I gotta get just a bit more sleep - or food, or something
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12:57:38 <les> diabase is the mineral that most plates are made of
12:57:58 <les> a type od gabbro
12:58:01 <les> of
12:58:26 <les> differs from granite in that it has little quartz and mica
12:58:47 <les> Starret pink plates are granite though
12:59:09 <les> starett
13:05:52 <les> well off for some breakfast for me
13:05:56 <les> back later
13:08:31 <paul_c> * paul_c updates the debian/emc repository.
13:44:24 <anonimasu> hm
13:44:41 <anonimasu> I got shot at yesterday night
13:46:47 <anonimasu> although with a airgun..
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14:36:59 <SWP_Away> SWP_Away is now known as SWPadnos
14:37:06 <SWPadnos> Hi there
14:38:06 <anonimasu> hey SWPadnos 
14:38:24 <SWPadnos> anonimasu: hey there
14:38:47 <SWPadnos> Who was the nut chooting at you with the airgun?
14:38:56 <SWPadnos> shooting
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14:39:09 <anonimasu> SWPadnos: no idea..
14:39:31 <anonimasu> SWPadnos: was from some balcony..
14:39:46 <anonimasu> if it would have passed through the windshield it would most likely have hit me in a lung..
14:39:47 <SWPadnos> ah - where do you live?
14:39:51 <anonimasu> north sweden..
14:39:56 <anonimasu> in a small town..
14:40:09 <SWPadnos> weird (right - you were talking about prices in SEK)
14:40:21 <anonimasu> * anonimasu isnt feeling too happy about it
14:40:34 <SWPadnos> no, I'd imagine not
14:41:24 <SWPadnos> well - I got a cool thing wokring
14:41:51 <SWPadnos> I can now use both terminal and X-windows apps on the CNC machine, from my Windows machine
14:41:51 <anonimasu> tell me about it
14:41:57 <SWPadnos> (with 3 big monitors)
14:41:59 <anonimasu> ah nice
14:42:05 <anonimasu> running cygwin?
14:42:28 <SWPadnos> yep - Cygwin + Cygwin-X
14:42:35 <anonimasu> nice
14:42:57 <SWPadnos> I was just happy to get SSH access turned on, and X sort of came for free :)
14:43:04 <anonimasu> I am in need of a second monitor someday soon
14:43:09 <SWPadnos> I
14:43:14 <anonimasu> but it will set me back a fair ammount of cash
14:43:21 <SWPadnos> I'm starating to think I can't live with less real estate.
14:43:29 <SWPadnos> I have 3 19" monitors at 1280x1024
14:43:34 <anonimasu> I have one atm..
14:43:47 <paul_c> * paul_c hugs the four 17" screens
14:43:55 <anonimasu> I have another 19.. but it's a crt..
14:44:05 <SWPadnos> (miiltiple cards - ick)
14:44:14 <anonimasu> I am thinking of buying a eizo 19" tft..
14:44:14 <anonimasu> :)
14:44:19 <anonimasu> a good screen..
14:44:23 <SWPadnos> I'm using only CRT at the moment
14:44:26 <anonimasu> and use my lg that I have now as secondary..
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14:44:36 <anonimasu> I cant like with thoose anymore, they gleam so much
14:44:38 <SWPadnos> The Eizo supercolor ones (or whatever they call them)?
14:44:58 <SWPadnos> Those are pretty amazing for image quality
14:45:01 <anonimasu> I only have 2 outs on the laptop I use as workstation..
14:45:02 <anonimasu> :)
14:45:32 <SWPadnos> right.  I have a dual-DVI card (Matrox Parhelia), and I may change to 2x 1600x1200 LCD
14:45:43 <SWPadnos> It's almost the same number of pixels
14:45:49 <anonimasu> :)
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14:46:07 <anonimasu> good screens are expensive :)
14:46:34 <SWPadnos> yes - have you seen the IBM T221?
14:46:43 <anonimasu> no
14:46:59 <SWPadnos> $7500 or so, 3840x2400 resolution, 22 inch.
14:47:10 <anonimasu> but if you spend ~12 hours a day at a monitor.. they have to be good
14:47:19 <SWPadnos> it's *UN*believable
14:47:37 <anonimasu> hm, isnt the resolution too high?
14:48:00 <anonimasu> or does it match nicely with the size?
14:48:08 <SWPadnos> yeah - 200 pixels per inch.  You have to use a real OS that can handle that kind of thing (like NextStep or OS/2:) )
14:48:54 <SWPadnos> :)
14:48:54 <anonimasu> linux + xorg ;)
14:49:21 <anonimasu> http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=8578
14:49:22 <anonimasu> lol
14:49:28 <SWPadnos> True - I think Linux + some system with SVG or something would work OK.
14:49:34 <anonimasu> l in order to get the 3840x2400 native resolution, you'd need, according to IBM, at least two DVI connections from a single card at once (to get just 21 Hz refresh by the way) or four to get 41Hz refresh.
14:49:59 <SWPadnos> Right - they have a version with a Matrox card included :)
14:50:16 <SWPadnos> Refresh isn't as big a deal on LCD
14:50:20 <anonimasu> but well, refresh is less cruical on a tft/lcd..
14:50:29 <anonimasu> they dont scan the same way as crt's do :)
14:50:37 <SWPadnos> no, indeed
14:50:43 <anonimasu> at 60hz you never see anything on a tft.. ¨'
14:50:46 <anonimasu> while a crt is flashing ;)
14:51:22 <SWPadnos> and the TFT would never update, since the transition speed is usually between 25 and 40 ms
14:51:35 <SWPadnos> (faster ones are now in the 16 ms range)
15:02:10 <anonimasu> yep
15:04:13 <rayh> Martin K -- the latest config writer sent me some xmlish stuff.
15:04:39 <rayh> I put it on the wiki page http://www.redpoint.org.uk/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?EmcConfig
15:05:12 <anonimasu> nice
15:06:47 <SWPadnos> too bad I misnamed the KBuildConfig page - it really doesn't look much like KBuild
15:06:55 <rayh> I like the idea of start of var and end of var markup.
15:07:11 <rayh> That way we can use most any text between.
15:07:20 <SWPadnos> yep
15:07:44 <SWPadnos> Also, it makes the start and end explicit in the text, not implicit in the formatting
15:07:48 <rayh> The help stuff might be several paragraphs long and include references to images.
15:07:50 <SWPadnos> (line ends, for example)
15:08:11 <rayh> I struggled with line end and it can get messy.
15:08:36 <SWPadnos> Yeas.  Images can also be included - an XML-ish file is meant for data transport, after all
15:08:45 <SWPadnos> (it would be like multipart MIME emails)
15:09:05 <rayh> Do you think that <var> is the best </var> is the best way to mark.
15:09:35 <rayh> It is rather easy to search in tickle.
15:09:51 <rayh> I presume that it would also be rather easy to search in python.
15:10:09 <SWPadnos> and perfectly easy for a SGML / XML / HTML library to pick up
15:10:56 <SWPadnos> (hurry - make a decision before Jymmm gets back :) )
15:11:20 <rayh> wannavote?
15:11:24 <SWPadnos> Aye
15:11:31 <anonimasu> * anonimasu goes Yes
15:11:35 <anonimasu> *grins*
15:12:37 <rayh> Okay.  That is a resounding majority.  I'm using the current definitions of democracy<g>
15:12:55 <SWPadnos> Ah - wait until the opposition is asleep, then vote :)
15:13:17 <anonimasu> I dont get why jymm is so extremely aginst xml..
15:13:20 <anonimasu> or xml-ish
15:13:25 <rayh> Martin was going to test his stuff with python.  I'll test a bit with tickle and we should have the basic outline.
15:14:05 <rayh> I like the freedom of not using a DTD.  We trust the developers to manage the master doc.
15:14:22 <paul_c> rayh: The last "xml way" is close to what I envisaged....
15:14:38 <rayh> * rayh takes another look.
15:15:24 <SWPadnos> if one of us gets ambitious, there could be a DTD, and that's the advantage
15:15:46 <anonimasu> DTD?
15:16:07 <rayh> I'll trust you to know the DTD applicability.
15:16:41 <rayh> Document Type Definition 
15:16:55 <SWPadnos> * SWPadnos on the phone - argh
15:17:05 <anonimasu> yeah
15:17:13 <rayh> It is a kind of template that defines acceptable entries in the master doc.
15:17:23 <anonimasu> that's what I envisioned the xml-ish file to be..
15:18:10 <rayh> The last style that martin put in is on its head from what I was thinking but I can live with it.
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15:18:42 <alex_joni> greetings everybody
15:18:55 <anonimasu> hello alex
15:19:06 <alex_joni> hey an0n
15:19:40 <SWPadnos> hi there
15:19:49 <alex_joni> hey SWP
15:19:54 <rayh> Hi Alex.  
15:20:03 <alex_joni> hey rayh
15:20:11 <alex_joni> kinda crowded in here ;)
15:20:19 <alex_joni> could get interesting.. 
15:20:25 <SWPadnos> we need a bigger bus
15:21:02 <alex_joni> databus?
15:21:08 <alex_joni> addressbus?
15:21:11 <alex_joni> or microbus?
15:21:12 <SWPadnos> sure - that'll work
15:21:23 <SWPadnos> * SWPadnos gets another phone call
15:22:47 <rayh> Are we happy with the innermost element using eol as it's end?
15:22:53 <alex_joni> rayh: wanna get busy?
15:22:57 <alex_joni> eol?
15:23:04 <alex_joni> end of line?
15:23:14 <rayh> Yep.
15:23:21 <rayh> Yep.
15:23:30 <SWPadnos> I don't think so - the innermost element might be a paragraph of help text
15:24:13 <rayh> Yes and the logic to sort that out would have to be applied from outside of the file itself.
15:24:31 <alex_joni> not necessary
15:24:40 <alex_joni> you can have the paragraph on one line
15:24:46 <alex_joni> and wrap it later in the help box
15:25:05 <rayh> I was thinking of a multiparagraph help with embedded images.
15:25:16 <SWPadnos> unless there's formatting in the text (like two paragraphs :) )
15:25:35 <alex_joni> <br> :P
15:25:56 <alex_joni> rayh: html would be great for help
15:26:05 <alex_joni> it's got all elements already sorted out
15:26:06 <SWPadnos> It night not be good to mix <things>
15:26:13 <alex_joni> ;)
15:26:19 <SWPadnos> (ie, some are part of an element, others are control information
15:26:32 <alex_joni> how about special codes?
15:26:36 <SWPadnos> defining the element )
15:26:38 <alex_joni> <<control>>
15:26:41 <alex_joni> <html>
15:27:10 <rayh> In tk I wouldn't see a problem with <help-units> and a switch to html </help-units>
15:27:22 <SWPadnos> that may get ugly, but it might be OK if the paragraph text has <HTML> </HTML> tags in it...
15:27:36 <rayh> Sure.
15:28:08 <alex_joni> ok.. lets decide some stuff.. or else the whole thing will go on for weeks
15:28:09 <SWPadnos> <HelpForThisItem><HTML>This is <b>Some></b> help!</HTML></HelpForThisItem>
15:28:16 <alex_joni> right
15:28:18 <rayh> A strict xml parser might have a bitch of a time with it.
15:28:23 <alex_joni> 1. master file
15:28:35 <alex_joni> rayh: the xml parser can be 20 lines of code
15:28:40 <SWPadnos> It should allow encapsulation at the <item></Item> level
15:28:49 <rayh> You bet.
15:28:56 <alex_joni> ok... so we want 1 master file
15:29:00 <rayh> And only one master file.
15:29:07 <alex_joni> which defines all valid elements
15:29:14 <rayh> No matter how big it gets.
15:29:15 <alex_joni> along with values permitted for each element
15:29:30 <alex_joni> dropdown list, range, whatever
15:29:38 <rayh> I'm thinking data as well as format in that file.
15:29:51 <alex_joni> type of the element (string, int, float, bool)
15:30:06 <alex_joni> ok.. now besides that master we need the actual data
15:30:14 <alex_joni> which can be: 1. in the same file
15:30:20 <alex_joni> 2. in a different file
15:30:26 <alex_joni> 3. in actual .ini files
15:30:54 <SWPadnos> if the master file contains all possible configurations, then the configurator should easily be able to make a separate file (.ini, probably)
15:31:02 <rayh> I see the .ini being the product of the configuration program.
15:31:17 <alex_joni> and I agree
15:31:21 <rayh> rather than a part of the data itself.
15:31:28 <SWPadnos> right - and it only includes those sections necessary for the hardware / drivers selected
15:31:31 <alex_joni> but. the question is... can it read an ini?
15:31:42 <alex_joni> or should it read another data pool?
15:31:54 <SWPadnos> Ah - for modification of configurations
15:31:59 <SWPadnos> there's the trouble :)
15:32:02 <rayh> Ah.  It must be able to do that in order to take an existing and modify it.
15:32:09 <alex_joni> right
15:32:17 <rayh> I did that in my first config program.
15:32:29 <SWPadnos> and you can't output two files, because you can't be sure that a user won't edit the .ini
15:32:32 <rayh> It would be a sort of reverse engineering thing.
15:33:07 <SWPadnos> There should also be a command-line "is this .ini valid" function
15:33:08 <rayh> Generate a set of defaults from the ini it reads.
15:33:41 <rayh> Yes I suppose the defaults from that ini should be run through the "rules" engine.
15:33:43 <SWPadnos> Actually - it should be pretty easy - it's a simple lookup /. see if it's in the options test
15:34:08 <alex_joni> right
15:34:11 <SWPadnos> The master file will need to have the key/value names anyway so it can generate the .ini file
15:34:35 <alex_joni> ok.. let's try an example
15:34:44 <SWPadnos> so every setting has an <INISECTION> and <ININAME> property as well
15:34:55 <alex_joni> P - for axis_1
15:35:50 <rayh> I see P - for axis_1 as a generated thing rather than a master or data thing.
15:36:30 <rayh> P - for axis is a data thing.
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15:36:44 <rayh> It has a minval of 0 or 1
15:37:01 <rayh> and maxval of somethiing approaching infinity.
15:37:15 <SWPadnos> and type: float
15:37:22 <rayh> yes.
15:37:33 <SWPadnos> and status: required
15:37:50 <SWPadnos> (or something other than status)
15:38:00 <rayh> If axis any status required.
15:38:11 <SWPadnos> ?
15:38:26 <rayh> I can imagine someone building an emc with no axis definitions.
15:38:49 <SWPadnos> right - P is part of an axis definition, if there's an axis, there needs to be a P term
15:38:54 <rayh> It becomes a simple PLC or some such animal.
15:39:09 <alex_joni> <element><sections>axis_0,axis_1,axis_2,axis_3,axis_4,axis_5</sections><ininame>P</ininame><value type=float spec=range>0-100000</value><status>required</status><help><html>This is the proportional gain for this axis....</html></help></element>
15:39:27 <SWPadnos> Actually, do the axis definitions change depending on the kinematics module being used?
15:39:40 <rayh> No.
15:39:44 <alex_joni> kinematics is a different fish
15:40:04 <alex_joni> the joint is there (independent of kins), you still need PID for that motor, etc
15:40:14 <alex_joni> you don't have PID on XYZ, but on joints
15:40:19 <rayh> All axis definitions are "joint" rather than world.
15:40:25 <SWPadnos> right - it's the joints that need PID, not the axis
15:40:52 <rayh> aside- I was looking for some help with world limits but didn't get anywhere.
15:41:20 <SWPadnos> what's the issue?
15:41:37 <alex_joni> max_float units
15:41:39 <rayh> joint limits are of limited value because the singularities are a product of multiple joints in the pose.
15:42:26 <rayh> </aside>
15:43:28 <rayh> Are we ready to strip out the unused examples and establish a single markup pattern in the wiki.
15:43:36 <SWPadnos> OK by me
15:43:37 <alex_joni> sure rayh
15:43:46 <alex_joni> who goes first?
15:44:02 <rayh> You.  I'll watch.
15:44:45 <SWPadnos> I'll make the KBuildConfig page refer people back to the EMCConfig page (only)
15:44:58 <alex_joni> bummer ;)
15:45:02 <alex_joni> I have to work
15:45:04 <alex_joni> ...
15:45:13 <alex_joni> right ;)
15:45:17 <rayh> You bet.  It's to early in the morning to work here.
15:45:58 <dave-e> what do you mean ray...you've been up for hours. ;-)
15:45:59 <rayh> We thinking two files -- emc_config_master and emc_config_data -- or can we make it all one.
15:46:28 <rayh> * rayh right and I'm going for a cup of coffee.
15:46:35 <SWPadnos> good plan - brb
15:48:47 <rayh> Whoa.  Beautiful snow falling out there.  Flakes up to about 10mm.
15:49:21 <alex_joni> cool
15:49:27 <alex_joni> we have snow too.. but it melts
15:49:35 <alex_joni> and it'll freeze over the night.. not so good ;)
15:49:39 <alex_joni> ok.. now
15:49:41 <SteveStallings> Metric snow, must be coming down from Canada.
15:49:46 <alex_joni> which xml format will we use?
15:50:07 <alex_joni> there are 3 types in the wiki
15:50:13 <paul_c> a simple one (I hope)
15:50:28 <alex_joni> paul_c: that's one of the goals ;)
15:50:43 <rayh> KIS
15:50:50 <SWPadnos> S
15:50:53 <alex_joni> even KISS ;)
15:51:02 <SWPadnos> (he's just being nice :) )
15:51:08 <alex_joni> always
15:51:32 <alex_joni> right.. so the dataflow should resemble the .ini?
15:51:57 <SWPadnos> It should probably be more hierarchical
15:52:17 <SWPadnos> you'll need to select a motion driver, then the parameters that are specific to that driver
15:52:25 <SWPadnos> then hardware, and its' parameters, etc.
15:53:14 <alex_joni> so it'll be more like a wizard, than an graphic frontend to an ini
15:53:42 <SWPadnos> well - I keep thinking a KBuild interface would be ideal (even if the underlying file format isn't that)
15:54:09 <SWPadnos> there are things missing from KBuild though - like mutually exclusive seelctions
15:54:13 <SWPadnos> (radio buttons)
15:54:28 <rayh> * rayh is on the phone for a bit.
15:57:27 <SWPadnos> alex_joni: are you editing the wiki page right now?
15:57:41 <alex_joni> * alex_joni is thinking ,)
15:57:49 <SWPadnos> sorry to interrupt :)
15:57:49 <alex_joni> that's a tough process... 
15:57:58 <alex_joni> you can go ahead and edit
15:58:11 <alex_joni> I'll make a local copy first, and paste it later
15:58:12 <SWPadnos> OK - I'll strip out the non-XML-ish things
15:58:15 <SWPadnos> OK
15:58:17 <alex_joni> right
16:01:37 <paul_c> * paul_c adds a comment to the xml  config page.
16:03:13 <SWPadnos> I think I envision having an <include> tag, so that configs for additional drivers can be added easily
16:05:01 <alex_joni> paul_c: right (about your comment)
16:06:22 <SWPadnos> there are machine options, which decide which module options are needed (by chosing a particular module in the "general" section)
16:06:41 <alex_joni> and those could be in separate files
16:06:44 <alex_joni> or sections
16:06:55 <alex_joni> <include freqmod.options>
16:06:56 <SWPadnos> rihgt - hence my desire for an <include>
16:07:21 <alex_joni> * alex_joni is concentrating on general stuff for now
16:07:22 <SWPadnos> the driver (or directory) has a configuration file (a la KBuild :) )
16:07:24 <rayh> good stuff.  We've gotten beyond the markup and are beginning to look at the structure of the whole file.
16:07:32 <SWPadnos> woohoo
16:07:39 <alex_joni> we put the markup on hold ;)
16:08:31 <SWPadnos> So, the machine has several parameters: which display to use, which motion driver (if any), what kinematics (if any), and what hardware
16:08:38 <SWPadnos> (general parameters)
16:09:27 <SWPadnos> plus others (line RS274 interpreter, vs. a ladder module, for example)
16:09:49 <alex_joni> I see it like this:
16:09:52 <alex_joni> there's EMC
16:09:57 <alex_joni> there (can be) HAL
16:10:03 <alex_joni> there can be CL
16:10:14 <rayh> I still think that the specific machine and it's specific selections from the possibles not a part of either the master or the data file. 
16:10:39 <SWPadnos> master has to have the options listed
16:11:13 <alex_joni> I see the master as a list of rules
16:11:24 <rayh> Some vars will overlap
16:11:33 <alex_joni> like: DISPLAY .. can be one of the following: tkemc, mini, axis, ...
16:11:45 <SWPadnos> the overlap is incidental - the vars need to be specified wherever they're needed
16:11:48 <alex_joni> MACHINE: can be a string (limited to x chars)
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16:13:32 <alex_joni> EMCMOT (inside EMCMOT section) can be one of the following: freqmod (in that case include freqmod.rules), steppermod (include steppermod.rules), etc.
16:13:56 <rayh> Right.  I like that a lot.
16:14:10 <rayh> It reads a lot like the existing ini file.
16:14:25 <alex_joni> that's what I am going for
16:14:32 <SWPadnos> <aside>it's interesting to see how the software should be partitioned, when you start talking about how the configuration information should be arranged :) </aside>
16:14:51 <rayh> Isn't that the truth.
16:14:59 <alex_joni> the basic structure would be like the existing inifile (at least the emc-part of it)
16:15:26 <rayh> You can also see how convoluted it got as things got added in.
16:15:27 <alex_joni> if (when) we extend it to emc2 it would furtheron include the hal stuff
16:15:40 <alex_joni> how does this sound:
16:15:48 <paul_c> * paul_c adds more.
16:15:50 <alex_joni> <emcconfig>
16:15:50 <alex_joni>   
16:15:50 <alex_joni>  <!-- emc basic configuration -->
16:15:50 <alex_joni>  <app name=emc>
16:15:50 <alex_joni>    <conf_file_name><value type=string></value></conf_file_name>
16:16:00 <SWPadnos> talking about shared parameters, with an include directive, you can reuse an "axis" or a "display" variable set by having small files that are included from the module files
16:16:01 <alex_joni>    <section name=EMC>
16:16:01 <alex_joni>    <element><ininame>VERSION</ininame><value type=string></value><help>INI-File version</help></element>
16:16:01 <alex_joni>    <element><ininame>MACHINE</ininame><value type=string></value><help>Describe your machine here</help></element>
16:16:01 <alex_joni>    <element><ininame>DEBUG</ininame><value type=list>none,low,medium,high,very-high</value></element>
16:16:02 <rayh> Exactly and the CL stuff as well although one or more CL ladders might be separate files.
16:16:08 <alex_joni>    <element><ininame>RS274NGC_STARTUP_CODE</ininame><value type=string></value><help>Put startup codes for your machine here (e.g: G20 for mm)</help></element>
16:16:09 <alex_joni>    </section>
16:16:22 <SWPadnos> (CL?)
16:16:32 <alex_joni> CL=classic ladder
16:16:36 <SWPadnos> ah - thanks
16:16:56 <paul_c> Why does variable types have to be in the xml definition ??
16:17:08 <SWPadnos> so the data can be validated
16:17:24 <SWPadnos> (by a program that isn't hard-coded to know that a P value is a float)
16:17:30 <alex_joni> the xml definition is like a set of rules
16:18:10 <paul_c> so how well will the validation handle hex or octal notation ?
16:18:11 <alex_joni> it's supposed to be read by a "dumb" (sorry rayh ;) configurator who, based on this file, allows the user to create a config file
16:18:30 <alex_joni> the types described there are made up
16:18:36 <SWPadnos> we can add our own tags thouhg, so you would say <parameter name="P" type="float">Proportional coefficient</parameter>
16:18:51 <alex_joni> right
16:19:09 <alex_joni> or... type=hex
16:19:32 <SWPadnos> the validator will need to know all types that could be in the file
16:19:40 <rayh> Perhaps we can coin a new guiding principle KISFAT. (Keep It Simple For Aunt Tillie)
16:19:56 <paul_c> the ini file is a plain old text file. The xml file is also a plain text file.
16:20:16 <paul_c> treat everything as 'riggin strings.
16:20:20 <SWPadnos> KISFATASS: Keep It Simple For Aunt Tilly, As She's Stupid :)
16:20:42 <rayh> Okay!
16:20:44 <alex_joni> <element><ininame>BASE_ADDRESS</ininame><value type=hex></value><help>The base address of your hardware goes here. Usual values are 0x378, but you should check the output of cat /dev/ioports to make sure</help></element>
16:21:12 <rayh> I"m in agreement with the strings notion so long as we have start and ending markers.
16:21:28 <paul_c> base address could just as easily be an integer
16:21:51 <alex_joni> paul_c: don't see Aunt Tilly converting from int to hex and back
16:21:55 <SWPadnos> a type of "integer" could allow any avlid integer format
16:22:01 <SWPadnos> valid
16:22:09 <alex_joni> like hex?
16:22:13 <rayh> In that case we would need to convert in some places and not others.
16:22:21 <SWPadnos> if it's not decimal, octal, hex, or binary, it's not a valid integer
16:22:34 <alex_joni> SWP: why would you want that?
16:22:42 <alex_joni> BASE_ADDRESS is supposed to be hex
16:22:55 <SWPadnos> use the "standard" conventions for integers - if it has 0x or $ in front, check for hex
16:22:58 <alex_joni> and MIN_LIMIT is supposed to be decimal
16:23:10 <SWPadnos> MIN_MINIT is a float
16:23:16 <alex_joni> float
16:23:18 <alex_joni> whatever ;)
16:23:35 <SWPadnos> OK - but not an integer type (though it will probably have an integer value)
16:23:41 <alex_joni> you could have floats expressed as hex :P
16:23:46 <SteveStallings> OK, I am slowly coming out of the fog of my post birthday hangover and am wondering.... is the goal to have configuration editor that reads rules and provides a gui to edit the ini (or equiv file) while enforcing the rules?
16:24:00 <alex_joni> yes
16:24:01 <paul_c> exactly my point - The data tpes are implied by the names, so there is no point in coding them in to the xml.
16:24:11 <rayh> And I confess that I used both without any identifier in some tickle code we use.
16:24:25 <alex_joni> paul_c: in that case you need to hardcode it in the confgurator
16:25:32 <paul_c> no you don't. It is hard coded in the ini parser.
16:25:54 <alex_joni> well the configurator is the iniparser
16:26:04 <alex_joni> it outputs the ini (or reads it)
16:26:19 <rayh> No.
16:26:21 <paul_c> for example - "0" - can be parsed as a float, int, hex, or bool.
16:26:24 <alex_joni> no?
16:26:36 <SteveStallings> .. but the real system will also need to parse the ini file, hopefully by using some of the same code.
16:26:38 <SWPadnos> that's why the type is needed
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16:26:42 <rayh> We need separation between the data file which is all possible variants of each var.
16:27:01 <rayh> And the final product of a configurator.
16:27:17 <SWPadnos> right - this will need to be an inifile reader/writer
16:27:22 <alex_joni> hey john
16:27:24 <rayh> All of these rules need to be in the data but not applied.
16:27:29 <SWPadnos> with the additional functionality of checking the values for validity
16:27:43 <SWPadnos> and allowing easy (GUI) setting of those parameters
16:27:56 <jmkasunich> morning guys
16:27:59 <alex_joni> hmm..I was thinking of the following scenario
16:28:01 <SWPadnos> morning
16:28:18 <alex_joni> the configurator (GUI) reads the master definition file (filled with rules)
16:28:20 <SteveStallings> With all the code out there, isn't there something that will handle this type of job?
16:28:26 <SWPadnos> yes
16:28:28 <alex_joni> and presents the user options to chose from
16:28:32 <SWPadnos> (but not exactly)
16:28:40 <alex_joni> and the user can fill up stuff based on those rules
16:28:53 <alex_joni> if it says hex.. he can't edit int in that field
16:28:59 <alex_joni> simply because the GUI won't allow it
16:29:15 <alex_joni> when he's done the data entered is 100% valid
16:29:36 <alex_joni> and it only needs to be written to a file (based on the sections and ininames)
16:30:11 <SWPadnos> or read from an ini, if the user is modifying a configuration
16:30:29 <rayh> and on stuff the integrator enters like number of axes and kinematics and such.
16:30:45 <alex_joni> that too.. but during reading the data gets validated by the same rules
16:30:51 <SWPadnos> right
16:31:03 <SWPadnos> and invalid entries can be flagged in the GUI
16:31:06 <alex_joni> rayh: right
16:31:12 <SWPadnos> (ie, missing P value on an axis
16:31:14 <SWPadnos> )
16:31:55 <rayh> I'm not certain I understand where this fits into the scheme but ...
16:32:21 <jmkasunich> SWP just said "missing P value on an axis"
16:32:23 <rayh> EMC1 anyway has a whole set of default values that it uses if none is found in the ini
16:32:30 <jmkasunich> what if an axis is a stepper and doesn't need P
16:32:41 <jmkasunich> will the rules be 
16:32:42 <les> les has quit
16:32:44 <jmkasunich> oops
16:32:49 <jmkasunich> be "aware" of that?
16:32:51 <SWPadnos> then it wouldn't be marked "required" in the config validation information :)
16:32:58 <rayh> I believe that freqmod still requires the tuning variables from servos.
16:33:05 <alex_joni> freqmod does
16:33:11 <alex_joni> steppermod doesn't
16:33:13 <jmkasunich> thinking ahead to emc2 - stepgen doesn't
16:33:24 <rayh> True.
16:33:46 <SWPadnos> the stepgen module definition then wouldn't have that parameter in the specification
16:34:06 <rayh> John.  Can we look ahead to HAL integration by thinking of stepgen as a "section" in the ini
16:34:19 <jmkasunich> my "paradigm" for emc2 is that "motor control" is separated out from the core of the motion controller
16:34:31 <SWPadnos> I think it would be an <include FILE="stepgen.val"> line
16:34:45 <alex_joni> if stepgen has been selected
16:34:47 <jmkasunich> PID, or stepgen, or whatever, is a motor control function, not a motion control function
16:35:16 <jmkasunich> something like "stepgen.val" makes sense
16:35:34 <SWPadnos> .val-idation files
16:35:42 <jmkasunich> in theory, each HAL module could have a set of rules that can be used to validate it's configuration
16:35:56 <SWPadnos> think like the make system - the makefiles for each subdirectory are included from the master
16:36:13 <jmkasunich> in practice, it's gonna get hairy
16:36:49 <jmkasunich> I can already tell that there's gonna be more code needed to validate and configure an EMC than there will be actually running the EMC
16:36:55 <SWPadnos> I wouldn't thikn so.  each module has one or more .{c,cc,asm,h,hh} file, plus a .val file
16:36:58 <rayh> If we can treat each HAL mod as a section, then we can treat them exactly like any other.
16:37:08 <SWPadnos> the UI always takes more code than the meat of the program :)
16:37:25 <rayh> My tickle config program would pop up a pic of the mod with inpins outpins and parms.
16:37:33 <jmkasunich> something that I as a RT control guy find very depressing
16:37:45 <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich shuts up
16:37:50 <SWPadnos> me too - try it with an AVR :)
16:37:57 <rayh> And the rule set in the master doc does the work of insuring that they are properly filled.
16:38:10 <alex_joni> rayh: who?
16:38:28 <SWPadnos> right - your program only needs to know what modules are available (which could be from ls *.val)
16:38:42 <SWPadnos> then it can load up the definitions and present them in whatever way
16:39:14 <rayh> Yep and the rules for that guide the gui configurator and the person running it.
16:39:35 <SWPadnos> right - lots of small files that a person can string together to do something :)
16:39:39 <alex_joni> swp: now let's talk KISFATASS
16:39:53 <SWPadnos> I'm all ears :)
16:39:56 <alex_joni> how would Aunt Tillie know what modules it needs?
16:40:18 <rayh> Tillie is NOT going to look at the master or data.  That is handled by the developers.
16:40:26 <alex_joni> from the gui
16:40:30 <SWPadnos> there's a list of modules, organized by function  (GUI / motion / etc)
16:40:33 <rayh> But those must still be KIS
16:40:44 <SWPadnos> click on one and you get a description (from the help text)
16:41:03 <SWPadnos> double-click or drag, and it's part of your machine definition
16:41:07 <alex_joni> I think we should simplify it even more
16:41:10 <rayh> HAL config is going to be difficult enough for Tillie with a gui that lists all possible HAL mods.
16:41:20 <alex_joni> for the user (aunt tillie)
16:41:31 <SWPadnos> hierarchical tree for function types - still hard, but not as bad
16:41:41 <alex_joni> I think we need a dumb more
16:41:45 <alex_joni> (wizard mode)
16:41:48 <rayh> If tillie answers that she has steppers on her machine, that will eliminate a lot of stuff.
16:41:53 <jmkasunich> this brings up an issue that's been nagging me for a while
16:41:58 <alex_joni> first screen: hello aunt tillie
16:42:06 <alex_joni> click next to configure your machine
16:42:25 <alex_joni> second screen: advanced or normal config (next if unsure)
16:42:33 <jmkasunich> I wrote HAL to be as flexible and powerfull as possible, when used by folks like me (engineers, veteran tinkerers, etc)
16:42:34 <alex_joni> third: steppers / servo
16:42:38 <rayh> jmkasunich: nagging
16:42:42 <jmkasunich> NOT for Aunt Tilly
16:42:54 <alex_joni> definately
16:43:01 <SWPadnos> Does it need to be at that level?  a person building / configuring a machine will probably not be at that novice a level
16:43:06 <jmkasunich> IMHO, you can't Tilly-ize it without also limiting it
16:43:07 <rayh> I don't see a big problem with that.  
16:43:18 <alex_joni> SWP: you'd be surprised
16:43:29 <SWPadnos> I'm always surprised :)
16:43:34 <alex_joni> ask rayh what phonecalls he gets
16:43:40 <SWPadnos> (the universe keeps building better idiots)
16:43:42 <rayh> There will always need to be a button someplace on the screen that says to the configurator
16:43:58 <rayh> not the person -- the program.
16:44:01 <jmkasunich> or read CCED or the xylotex group... there are a lot of clueless newbs out there building CNC machines
16:44:08 <rayh> I want to violate your rules.
16:44:11 <SWPadnos> I'veseen
16:44:57 <jmkasunich> rayh: agreed about that button... but the GUI itself is limiting, due to the sheer size and complexity
16:45:00 <rayh> at which point, if pressed, turns the whole screen red as $#@^ and puts up a message. "all bets are off."
16:45:02 <alex_joni> rayh: that's under advanced
16:45:27 <jmkasunich> I can do with a 20-40 line .hal file what it would take tons of GUI code to do
16:45:41 <jmkasunich> of course, the GUI let's tilly do it
16:45:43 <rayh> Yes it will mean that the configurator switches into a hal setup mode.
16:46:11 <alex_joni> I think hal's a different thing
16:46:24 <SWPadnos> some things can be automatic (from the definition file)
16:46:25 <jmkasunich> I'm starting to agree
16:46:27 <paul_c> * paul_c adds more to wiki.
16:46:36 <alex_joni> I would expect graphical interconecting to be able to sort it out
16:46:47 <jmkasunich> the HAL I want to continue working on isn't neccessarily the HAL that EMC needs or wants
16:46:49 <rayh> So I'm seeing at least three levels of gui approach.  New setup, read existing ini, expert.
16:47:19 <alex_joni> rayH: RIGHT so far
16:47:19 <paul_c> expert would be text editor ?
16:47:23 <rayh> And expert might be pressed after either of the others.
16:47:42 <rayh> With some help from min max and type.
16:47:54 <SWPadnos> new setup and existing ini are the same, except for asking "would you like to use an existing configuration" at the beginning
16:48:09 <rayh> Yes they are.
16:48:32 <SWPadnos> a "Set all to default" button would also take care of existing .ini files
16:48:41 <SWPadnos> (or "new configuration")
16:48:44 <jmkasunich> and IMO, nobody would ever say "no" to that question, if we supply some samples, at least one for steppers and one for servos
16:48:50 <rayh> I could still see the expert gui screen displaying the drawing of each module and a list of mods.
16:49:51 <alex_joni> ok.. so we agree there are 3 kinds of people
16:49:53 <rayh> Exactly.  I would prefer to see a set of <mini-standard> stuff </mini-standard> rather than an external read. 
16:50:08 <alex_joni> 1. basic aunt tilly (click and drool)
16:50:22 <rayh> That way mini can evolve as other variables evolve.
16:50:27 <SWPadnos> (no - 10 kinds of people - those who understand binary, and those who don't :) )
16:50:39 <rayh> Yep.
16:50:48 <alex_joni> would use the next, next approach (select between steppers, servo, etc..) which are predefined setups
16:51:09 <alex_joni> 2. advanced aunt tilly (has the configurator at help)
16:51:15 <rayh> At least they greatly limit the range of choices.]
16:51:39 <alex_joni> would open an existing config (even created by method 1), and allow some changes (based on rules)
16:51:44 <SWPadnos> which pins do the step outputs get connected to in the click/drool scenario? 
16:51:46 <jmkasunich> maybe that's the point: "At least they greatly limit the range of choices."
16:52:01 <SWPadnos> that becomes a hard problem, since you may not know the hardware yet
16:52:06 <alex_joni> 3. supertilly (is allowed to change anything regardless of rules)
16:52:21 <jmkasunich> I absolutely _hate_ the "feature" of winXP where it doesn't show ALL the entries in the program menu, it only shows the ones you used lately
16:52:29 <alex_joni> SWP: predefined hardware
16:52:38 <SWPadnos> Supertilly can use a text edirot - I think a validator shouldn't generate invalid files
16:52:41 <alex_joni> jmk: you can switch that off
16:52:44 <SWPadnos> editor
16:52:51 <alex_joni> right.. 
16:52:54 <rayh> c&d gets a <parport options> xylotex pmdx120 ... </>
16:52:56 <jmkasunich> I know you can (and I have on any system I use)
16:53:00 <alex_joni> * alex_joni changed +st mode on paul_c
16:53:14 <jmkasunich> the point is there _are_ two kinds of people, those that want to see everything, and those that don't
16:53:24 <jmkasunich> I imagine others like that "feature"
16:53:29 <alex_joni> right ;)
16:53:45 <alex_joni> that's why all the wizards have the expert option (for people like you)
16:53:58 <SWPadnos> so you would put detailed connection instructions somewhere for the person doing a click/drool setup?
16:54:03 <alex_joni> and the [next] approach on others
16:54:29 <alex_joni> +v is Aunt Villie?
16:54:38 <SWPadnos> Aunt Vile
16:54:43 <alex_joni> lol
16:56:05 <alex_joni> ok.. now, I think the wizard would be needed for unexperienced users
16:57:41 <alex_joni> I think that the first type of wizard can be hardcoded
16:57:48 <alex_joni> wouldn't be that long anyway
16:57:59 <alex_joni> and wouldn't change that often either
16:58:19 <SWPadnos> as long as it can take input files, that would be fine
16:58:42 <alex_joni> what kind of input files?
16:58:51 <SWPadnos> (and the file could be <option name=NewHardware">Entire INI file follows</option>
16:58:55 <Jymmm> Jymmm has joined #emc
16:59:00 <SWPadnos> * SWPadnos hides
16:59:54 <Jymmm> from what?
17:00:11 <SWPadnos> you, we're talking about XML-like things :)
17:00:28 <Jymmm> it's your funeral
17:03:58 <Jymmm> I only have one thing to say about that...  [KISS] Keep It Simple Stupid. Why overthink things?
17:04:16 <alex_joni> KISS is not at hand right now
17:04:17 <SWPadnos> because Aunt Tillie can't think for herself.
17:04:24 <alex_joni> we moved to KISFATASS
17:04:42 <alex_joni> Keep It Simple For Aunt Tillie As She's Stupid
17:04:49 <jmkasunich> the problem is that making things simple for Aunt Tilly means making them _far_ more complicated inside and then hiding that complexity from her
17:05:11 <alex_joni> jmk: don't think it'll get more complicated than now
17:05:38 <jmkasunich> how many lines of GUI code is it gonna take to implement what you guys are talking about... that is complexity
17:05:50 <rayh> I'd rather see a <gui> rules...</gui>  than a hardcoded thing.
17:05:57 <SWPadnos> well - we've been digressing from the file format and contents to how to present it to the user
17:06:43 <rayh> I agree.  We need to think about what the various users need to see rather than how to code what they are going to see.
17:07:09 <SWPadnos> it's possible (though a PITS) to add a "level" tag to every element
17:07:31 <SWPadnos> LEVEL=ADV means a KISFATASS GUI doesn't show the option, and just uses default
17:07:38 <alex_joni> right.. we need to decide what we need to accomplish first
17:07:43 <alex_joni> and decide implementation after that
17:08:03 <alex_joni> ADV?
17:08:12 <SWPadnos> a simple GUI can just show all options as a tree, and possibly have a checkbos for what to include in the output
17:08:18 <SWPadnos> ADVances configurations only
17:08:22 <SWPadnos> advanced
17:08:35 <SWPadnos> LEVEL=BASIC means everyone gets to see it
17:08:41 <SWPadnos> (or something like that)
17:09:03 <rayh> No I think a <advanced> rules >/> is much better
17:09:35 <alex_joni> I think everything we have been discussing so far is advanced
17:09:40 <Jymmm> "Hey I know, lets have a nero-interface (a la matrix style) then you won't even need a keyboard. Just think what you want to have as the final product and it'll just start being created by the machine"
17:09:50 <alex_joni> the basic wouldn't cover any (or very few) of the above
17:10:04 <alex_joni> Jymmm: if you code it .. I agree ;)
17:10:24 <alex_joni> "stare at the screen long enough .. and it will happen"
17:10:36 <Jymmm> alex_joni: Deal, you will be my beta test bitch!
17:10:43 <SWPadnos> Let's hire a milion monkeys, and see what we get
17:10:53 <rayh> a lotta crap
17:11:08 <SWPadnos> right - so let's get back to settings and validation
17:11:26 <Jymmm> rayh: more than what's already here?
17:11:28 <alex_joni> lol
17:12:06 <rayh> We're not even close.
17:12:17 <rayh> * rayh is on the phone for a few minutes again.
17:13:03 <Jymmm> * Jymmm grabs the backhoe, as this shovel of mine it's able to handle how deep it's getting anymore.
17:13:43 <rayh> No I think that we've made a lot of progress this morning.
17:14:11 <Jymmm> Sure, if this was a fertilizer factory.
17:14:17 <Jymmm> =)
17:14:51 <Jymmm> </soapbox>
17:15:09 <SWPadnos> How about this:  let's actually get a final decision about what needs to be in the file, then pick an appropriate encoding scheme /file format for it
17:15:26 <SWPadnos> (like top-down design)
17:15:39 <Jymmm> how about just an outline
17:16:01 <SWPadnos> an outline of the file, or the file should contain an outline :)
17:16:14 <Jymmm> of what goes in the file
17:16:38 <alex_joni> I think we need to get a decision what tillie needs to see
17:16:43 <rayh> And eventually we will want to make a second list of the order in which aunt tillie will see these things.
17:16:59 <rayh> But these are separate.
17:17:32 <rayh> The tillie is just a branching thing  If this then tahat.
17:17:49 <rayh> darn fingers cant keep up with head.
17:17:57 <SWPadnos> OK.  I think we've identified that we want a list of .ini parameters
17:18:01 <SWPadnos> separated by module
17:18:08 <SWPadnos> with metadata about the parameter:
17:18:14 <SWPadnos> 1) data type
17:18:23 <SWPadnos> 2) required/optional
17:18:29 <SWPadnos> 3) range
17:18:40 <SWPadnos> 4) where in the .ini file it goes
17:19:03 <alex_joni> starts to sound like a database ;) 
17:19:07 <SWPadnos> also, the file shuold have some type of #include directive, to allow easier separation of configuration for different modules
17:19:34 <alex_joni> bare in mind that you need exclusive include directives
17:19:55 <SWPadnos> ?
17:20:18 <SWPadnos> like "only include either steppermod or freqmod data"
17:20:20 <SWPadnos> but not both
17:20:23 <alex_joni> right
17:20:41 <alex_joni> include one and only one of the following: steppermod, freqmod, smdromod, etc.
17:21:00 <SWPadnos> OK.  that would be accomplished at the GUI level - a module definition in the master file might just be <module>include "module.val"</module>
17:21:33 <SWPadnos> I think there are a small number of module types (possibly until we get to HAL)
17:21:38 <alex_joni> I would see it more as a metadata of one parameter
17:21:44 <SWPadnos> these parallel the .ini sections
17:21:55 <alex_joni> say you have the freqmod parameter
17:22:11 <Jymmm> OK.... WHY are you ppl so stuck on XML for? 
17:22:22 <alex_joni> not stuck on XML
17:22:31 <Jymmm> <module>include "module.val"</module>
17:22:43 <alex_joni> just examples
17:22:45 <SWPadnos> I'm using it as an example - it's easy to follow
17:23:25 <SWPadnos> I could have said func($DISPLAY="include-file","module_name.var)
17:23:30 <alex_joni> could be a .c file ;)
17:23:34 <SWPadnos> but nobody would understand that (including me)
17:23:38 <alex_joni> #include "module.val"
17:23:55 <alex_joni> module freqmod () {
17:24:01 <SWPadnos> sure - class {steppermod
17:24:07 <jmkasunich> retch
17:24:09 <alex_joni> data_type= 
17:24:09 <SWPadnos> int output_step_pin
17:24:10 <alex_joni> }
17:24:26 <SWPadnos> hmmm - maybe we can parse the header files to get the information...
17:24:32 <SWPadnos> (NOT!)
17:25:05 <SWPadnos> actually - making big nasty macros like the kernel (MODULE_PARAM) might be helpful here
17:25:14 <SWPadnos> (or just annoying)
17:25:23 <jmkasunich> just annoying
17:25:24 <alex_joni> SWP: shush
17:25:43 <SWPadnos> OK - back to XML (sorry Jymmm)
17:25:52 <jmkasunich> ignore the format... focus on the data.... 
17:25:58 <SWPadnos> right
17:26:03 <rayh> I could easily see something like <stepper-rule> stuff 
17:26:09 <jmkasunich> a parameter needs a name, a min value, a max value, and a default value
17:26:21 <SWPadnos> and a type
17:26:22 <Jymmm> jmkasunich: parent/child
17:26:24 <rayh> or a set of possible values.
17:26:31 <alex_joni> jmk: that's data
17:26:41 <alex_joni> we were treatng data sepparately from the rules
17:27:06 <anonimasu> :)
17:27:10 <jmkasunich> rules like?
17:27:11 <SWPadnos> min max and default can be part of the rules though
17:27:12 <alex_joni> but range is a rule
17:28:35 <SWPadnos> so - the ini file has the following:
17:29:01 <SWPadnos> EMC section - easy to encode
17:29:08 <alex_joni> right
17:29:20 <SWPadnos> DISPLAY section - select at most one of the display programs
17:29:25 <SWPadnos> (or is it exactly one?)
17:29:30 <alex_joni> ahain right
17:29:49 <SWPadnos> Motion section - select exactly one (or at least one) of these
17:29:56 <Jymmm> Why not make the definition and the stting exactly the same format?
17:30:22 <SWPadnos> the ini file should have the mnimal set of information to make the machine run
17:30:25 <Jymmm> *.def  *.cfg
17:30:32 <SWPadnos> the configuration file should have all the possibilities
17:31:55 <alex_joni> SWP: keep going
17:32:10 <SWPadnos> so - look at the EMC section - what needs to be there in all cases, and what is optional?
17:32:13 <alex_joni> TRAJ is also pretty simple
17:32:30 <SWPadnos> (it looks like the RS274NCG_STARTUP_CODE shuold be in a different section
17:32:35 <alex_joni> think you need all 5
17:32:43 <alex_joni> well inivar expects it there
17:32:46 <SWPadnos> because you may not be using G-code for your machine)
17:32:59 <alex_joni> you do use g-code for your machine ;)
17:33:08 <alex_joni> there is nothing else available
17:33:14 <SWPadnos> I certainly will, but a ladder-only machine wouldn't
17:33:29 <alex_joni> a ladder-only machine won't run emc
17:33:48 <SWPadnos> plus, there's already a RS274NGC section, which seems to be the more logical place
17:34:26 <SWPadnos> I can think of robotic applications that wouldn't use G-code
17:34:34 <SWPadnos> but still might want to use EMC
17:35:06 <Jymmm> Y'All should run for office!
17:35:24 <alex_joni> SWP: emc doesn't run without gcode
17:35:31 <SWPadnos> Jymmm: that's an insult :)
17:35:45 <Jymmm> SWPadnos: DUH!
17:35:47 <alex_joni> you can jog it manually.. but nothing else
17:36:07 <anonimasu> alex_joni: there might be somone that has a special language for communicating with other hardware.. for example..
17:36:09 <anonimasu> :)
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17:36:19 <alex_joni> so?
17:36:27 <alex_joni> they still would use gcode for emc
17:36:34 <SWPadnos> so it wouldn't be G-code
17:36:40 <Jymmm> HPGL
17:36:44 <SWPadnos> think low-level motion controller
17:36:45 <alex_joni> they would use that special language instead of talking step pulses to the motors
17:37:09 <alex_joni> low-level motion controller doesn't speak gcode
17:37:16 <alex_joni> it talks NML
17:37:31 <alex_joni> from the gcode interpreter
17:37:43 <SWPadnos> right - but EMC could have a different motion language bolted onto it, which speaks NML
17:37:48 <paul_c> No, it uses canonical commands
17:38:08 <alex_joni> paul_c: right, canonical commands embedded in NML
17:38:38 <alex_joni> the debate is about emc beeing able to not use gcode but another interpreter to create those canonical commands
17:38:51 <alex_joni> be it step-nc
17:38:59 <alex_joni> or HPGL, or whatever
17:39:06 <SWPadnos> right - that shouldn't be decided by the ini file format :)
17:39:16 <rayh> IMO You guys really headed off the track now with the rules thing.  
17:39:36 <alex_joni> * alex_joni agrees
17:39:44 <SWPadnos> what do you see as the proper track?
17:39:59 <alex_joni> * alex_joni starts coding
17:40:06 <Jymmm> outline of requirements
17:40:35 <Jymmm> actually.... Purpose statement.
17:40:39 <SWPadnos> yes - the question is which rules go into the configurator file.
17:40:55 <SWPadnos> min / max / data type, or just "pick one of these values"
17:40:57 <rayh> Why not <interp> rs274ngc, stepnc, raync 
17:41:49 <SWPadnos> sure - I was going through generic.ini, and had noticed that the RS274NGC_STARTUP_CODE parameter seems to be misplaced in the .ini file
17:41:57 <rayh> Let the guy who writes the configurator decide exactly how to present the questions to tillie.
17:42:07 <SWPadnos> (should be under R274NGC section)
17:42:12 <SWPadnos> RS...
17:42:18 <rayh> Data validity is a thing by itself.
17:42:31 <rayh> Is 0x278 an int.
17:42:44 <SWPadnos> so is 632
17:42:51 <SWPadnos> (which isn't a problem)
17:43:03 <rayh> That is very different from the validity of an ini file for a specific machine and computer.
17:43:37 <rayh> I do see wanting rules like if freqmod not steppermod.
17:43:48 <SWPadnos> so the configuration file needs to have the location in the ini file, plus any restrictions on the data itself (type, range, required)
17:43:52 <rayh> But those kinds of rules will change as drivers change.
17:44:11 <SWPadnos> that makes an include directive pretty important
17:44:35 <SWPadnos> if a driver changes, then the driver data config file would have to change as well
17:44:40 <rayh> I see the required as a separate kind of thing.
17:45:01 <rayh> To me that's more of a stepper v servo thing.
17:45:04 <SWPadnos> if a driver is added / removed, then the re should be two lines in the master file that change:
17:45:13 <SWPadnos> first, the line that provides this driver as an option
17:45:15 <rayh> Which is not at the same level as the variable itself.
17:45:23 <SWPadnos> second, the line that includes the drivers info file
17:45:58 <rayh> Except that I saw it as a single flat file with sections that do these things.
17:46:23 <SWPadnos> that would be simpler to make, but harder to maintain
17:46:33 <alex_joni> * alex_joni reboots his devel box
17:46:36 <alex_joni> back in a bit
17:46:40 <alex_joni> alex_joni has left #emc
17:47:16 <anonimasu> SWPadnos: that would offload keeping the config correct to the module authors..
17:47:19 <anonimasu> :)
17:47:35 <rayh> Right.
17:47:37 <SWPadnos> even if make turns it into a flat file (use the c preprocessor and #includes)
17:47:47 <SWPadnos> right - even better :)
17:47:56 <anonimasu> are we talking "compile" now?
17:48:07 <SWPadnos> it should start out as separate pieces IMO
17:48:10 <anonimasu> that's running away a bit.. :)
17:48:30 <anonimasu> config should be config.. compilation should be another step entirely on its own..
17:48:41 <anonimasu> even though you might use the same tool to configure that tool.
17:48:43 <anonimasu> err
17:48:45 <anonimasu> too
17:49:13 <SWPadnos> yes - but since the modules to be created are decided at emc buil;d time, the configuration (EMC configuration, not ./configure) file can be created at the same time, from component parts
17:50:25 <alex_joni> alex_joni has joined #emc
17:50:31 <alex_joni> back
17:50:38 <rayh> Seems to me that this is a separate issue emc build v emc configure
17:50:40 <SWPadnos> hi again
17:50:51 <SWPadnos> absolutely.
17:51:11 <SWPadnos> I was only pointing out that the emc build can also create appropriate configuration validation files
17:51:27 <alex_joni> swp: don't go there
17:51:31 <paul_c> s/can/could/
17:51:38 <rayh> Yes it could.
17:52:09 <SWPadnos> no tactual configurations - just concatenations of the .val files for compiled modules
17:52:15 <SWPadnos> not actual
17:52:34 <SWPadnos> (or a cpp run through a master .val file)
17:52:36 <alex_joni> the build should compile all modules
17:52:41 <rayh> Okay I see where you are thinking.
17:52:53 <alex_joni> the thing you aim for could be the other way around
17:53:00 <rayh> automatic passing of data from compile a module to configure a module.
17:53:05 <alex_joni> configure what you need, and build that (only freqmod)
17:53:25 <SWPadnos> yes - that would be the KBuild way :)
17:54:08 <rayh> In that case, we would not distribute EMC binaries.
17:54:10 <SWPadnos> I wa saddressing Ray's desire to have a flat file for configuration - if that's desirable, then make can create one from multiple module-specific validation files
17:54:34 <SWPadnos> each of which is easy to maintain
17:54:45 <alex_joni> did any of you ever try geda?
17:54:46 <rayh> Wow.  You guys are so far ahead of me...
17:55:00 <alex_joni> gEDA actually?
17:55:15 <alex_joni> it's a GPL schematic suite
17:55:17 <SWPadnos> I just installed it, I may run it in a minute
17:55:27 <alex_joni> I absolutely hate it, but I liked the setup
17:55:28 <paul_c> I can see one scenario where compile time generation of a config template would go tits up.
17:55:31 <SWPadnos> (on my Win box, via Cygwin-X :) )
17:55:38 <SWPadnos> right - if you ionoly compile pieces
17:56:08 <paul_c> or if you use (for example) Jon's ppmc module
17:56:27 <paul_c> and it wasn't compiled on your box.
17:56:40 <SWPadnos> good point.
17:57:02 <SWPadnos> the best way might be to have a directory of config files for different modules
17:57:04 <alex_joni> right
17:57:23 <SWPadnos> the first thing in the file is <CONFIGTYPE="MOTION"> or sonething like that
17:57:37 <SWPadnos> the GUI just gets a file list to see what's there
17:58:09 <SWPadnos> with possible config types being {display ,motion,interpreter,hardware} etc.
17:58:12 <Jymmm> Anyone have a reference to selecting a screw type? (speed/torque/etc) ?
18:02:19 <Jymmm> Wow! Is that all I have to do to shut you ppl up?  Impressive =)
18:02:48 <SWPadnos> nope - are you looking for ball vs. acme vs. other?
18:03:50 <Jymmm> SWPadnos: correct. I want to build a router table, but eventually add a laser to it if possible
18:04:11 <SWPadnos> I don't have any specific resources - just curious.
18:05:00 <Jymmm> SWPadnos: asdfqwega said his does 25IPM (acme iirc), so I was just looking for alternatives
18:05:22 <narnia> narnia has quit
18:06:19 <SWPadnos> I think I'll be getting 175 IPM rapids on my Bridgeport - I'm not sure I want to spin the ballscerw any faster than that anyway (875 RPM is pretty fast)
18:06:41 <anonimasu> hehe :)
18:07:06 <SWPadnos> In fact, I don't think I'll want to spin the ballscrew that fast even
18:07:13 <Jymmm> SWPadnos: can you get torque out of that as well?
18:07:36 <Jymmm> (not at that speed of course =)
18:07:38 <SWPadnos> yes - up to 112 in-lb if needed
18:07:44 <SWPadnos> yes-at that speed
18:08:01 <Jymmm> SWPadnos: and if you slow it down by half?
18:08:14 <SWPadnos> I'd have to switch to Rutes drives to get full motor performance
18:08:34 <SWPadnos> yes - there is a 2:1 drive from the motor, and the ballscrew is 5TPI
18:08:36 <Jymmm> Rutes?
18:08:41 <SWPadnos> Rutex - sorry
18:08:49 <Jymmm> Rutex?
18:08:51 <SWPadnos> (frozen fingers)
18:08:59 <Jymmm> frozen brain
18:09:12 <SWPadnos> not!
18:09:14 <Jymmm> what is Rutex?
18:09:22 <Jymmm> sound like a drain cleaner
18:09:33 <anonimasu> a gecko competitor..
18:09:34 <SWPadnos> (coffee thaws the brain, but the heater in the downstairs is on the fritz)
18:09:53 <alex_joni_> alex_joni_ has joined #emc
18:09:56 <SWPadnos> yes - I like the Geckos better, and I'm pretty sure I won't need to go more than 175 IPM on my 42" table
18:09:57 <Jymmm> anonimasu: ah, ty
18:10:21 <SWPadnos> (with 30" motion envelope)
18:10:26 <anonimasu> hm, I think rutex seems nice
18:10:37 <anonimasu> I havent tried rutex though..
18:10:57 <SWPadnos> They apparently use the same transstors as the Gecko, but rate them higher (not for the 200V drives, of course)
18:11:09 <anonimasu> but they larger counters
18:11:13 <anonimasu> for ferror..
18:11:25 <anonimasu> err lock range or whatever you call it..
18:11:34 <SWPadnos> not an issue - if the motor driver gets that far off, there's really likely to be some other more major problem
18:11:41 <anonimasu> yeah
18:11:48 <SWPadnos> I'd rather know about it sooner :)
18:11:58 <Jymmm> SWPadnos: what ballscrews do you have?
18:12:07 <SWPadnos> (though programmability is nice, I'm not sure how useful it actually is)
18:12:20 <SWPadnos> I got them from Machine Tools Direct (off eBay)
18:12:33 <Jymmm> SWPadnos: what were the specs?
18:12:47 <SWPadnos> they're a Bridgeport retrofit kit, complete with yoke
18:13:07 <Jymmm> SWPadnos $$$???
18:13:10 <SWPadnos> look at the Rockford Ballscrew retrofit kit specs, these are the same
18:13:13 <SWPadnos> $600
18:13:24 <anonimasu> is that each?
18:13:26 <SWPadnos> precision ground, too
18:13:36 <SWPadnos> total for the XY + yoke kit
18:13:44 <anonimasu> oh.. heh
18:13:50 <anonimasu> that's not that expensive
18:13:55 <SWPadnos> no mounts or Z axis stuff
18:14:00 <Jymmm> anonimasu the hell it's not!  lol
18:14:03 <SWPadnos> no - I looked around for a while for them
18:14:17 <anonimasu> Jymmm: it's not expensive.. :)
18:14:33 <anonimasu> Jymmm: have you seen the reail off dealers what a good ballscrew costs?
18:14:40 <SWPadnos> I got the 2J vari-speed BP for $1800, then added those, plus the computer, motors, etc - it definitely adds up
18:14:54 <Jymmm> anonimasu: No I haven't
18:15:27 <anonimasu> Jymmm: each of my ballscrews were about 579$
18:15:38 <SWPadnos> precision kits are in the $1500-$3000 range
18:15:40 <Jymmm> anonimasu: Heck man, I went to the flea market yesterday looking for stuff =)  Found a wallet though.
18:15:41 <anonimasu> not extremely special skf ballscrews..
18:16:45 <SWPadnos> Here's what I got: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3876812516
18:16:47 <anonimasu> Jymmm: so 600 for a kit is super cheap :)
18:17:11 <anonimasu> I saw a program at tv today where they milled a steering wheel out of alu
18:17:35 <anonimasu> with a large mill.. and I wanted one.. badly until 
18:17:44 <anonimasu> until I openend my tool catalogue..
18:17:49 <Jymmm> Hey, whats does the " 9 x 42" mean ?
18:18:07 <anonimasu> 56500$ for a small cnc mill..
18:18:40 <anonimasu> * anonimasu sighs
18:18:48 <Jymmm> Hey, whats does the " 9 x 42" mean ? Is it size, or travel?
18:18:56 <SWPadnos> table size
18:19:06 <Jymmm> ah, ok.
18:19:08 <rayh> y travel 9" x travel 42 inch"  There were a couple different sizes
18:19:26 <SWPadnos> travel is different (30x12 for me)
18:19:30 <rayh> These kits are made specifically for that set of ways.
18:19:39 <Jymmm> lol SWPadnos says  size, rayh says travel.
18:19:44 <Jymmm> * Jymmm is so confused
18:19:50 <Jymmm> lol
18:19:55 <rayh> It was deliberate.
18:20:04 <SWPadnos> right - the table measures 42" wide, and can move 30" in that direction
18:20:39 <SWPadnos> it's 9" front to back, and can move 12 inches in that direction, or 9 inches on some machines
18:20:40 <Jymmm> rayh: bastard!  =)
18:21:02 <rayh> Yep.  You are not the first to have characterized me as such.
18:21:18 <SWPadnos> I hope to preserve the full range of motion in X by creative motor mounting, but CNC retrofits for these often restrict movement to a 24" range
18:21:28 <Jymmm> Jymmm is now known as MrAsshole
18:21:30 <MrAsshole> * MrAsshole rayh: good to know =)
18:21:32 <MrAsshole> MrAsshole is now known as Jymmm
18:21:42 <SWPadnos> (due to the mounts hitting the saddle)
18:22:29 <SWPadnos> Well - exciting as that may be, what's the deal with machine configuration? :)
18:22:31 <rayh> * rayh must get away and take care of family tings, eh.
18:22:39 <SWPadnos> will you be back later?
18:22:41 <alex_joni> alex_joni has quit
18:22:53 <rayh> I'll keep watching the wiki.  
18:23:07 <rayh> Yes in a couple hours.
18:23:14 <rayh> rayh has left #emc
18:23:24 <SWPadnos> OK - I also have some things to take care of - I'll put thoughts on a wiki pagelater
18:23:31 <alex_joni_> alex_joni_ is now known as alex_joni
18:23:49 <SWPadnos> I'll be back later
18:23:59 <SWPadnos> SWPadnos is now known as SWP_away
18:24:02 <Jymmm> SWPadnos: I was just learning what the 9x96 meant (size or travel)
18:24:28 <Jymmm> 1.5-4 6' acme
18:25:08 <CIA-4> 03paul_c 07bdi-4 * 10emc2/src/emc/drivers/realtimeio.c: Rough init routine to demonstrate how this might progress.
18:25:58 <Jymmm> I found Enco for acme imports, anyone know any ballscrew import sources?
18:32:11 <A-L-P-H-A> hello everyone.
18:32:16 <alex_joni> hey there
18:32:33 <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, hiwynn (sp), roton (I like them)
18:32:42 <A-L-P-H-A> import ball screws??
18:32:54 <A-L-P-H-A> the companies I listed are domestic.
18:33:01 <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A: s/import/CHEAP/ ballscrews
18:33:02 <A-L-P-H-A> domestic to the US at least...
18:33:13 <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, what size and buget.
18:33:39 <A-L-P-H-A> 1" dia x 12" = $20/ft.  Ball nut is $28.75 each.
18:34:02 <A-L-P-H-A> error is 0.003" to 0.008" per foot.  Rolled ballscrews.  Not ground.
18:34:29 <Jymmm> url's?
18:34:33 <A-L-P-H-A> www.roton.com
18:34:46 <A-L-P-H-A> prices aren't online... but they have a 1800 number.
18:34:50 <SWP_away> Jymmm: search the CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO yahoo group - there was a recent discussion of ballscrews, and someone posted a list of suppliers
18:34:57 <SWP_away> bye
18:35:01 <Jymmm> SWP_away: ty
18:35:01 <A-L-P-H-A> 3/8" is expensive though... well the nut is, the shaft isn't.
18:35:14 <A-L-P-H-A> SWP_away? leaveing around?
18:35:24 <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A: I think I need 1/2" or better  (4')
18:35:26 <A-L-P-H-A> around=already
18:35:37 <A-L-P-H-A> 1/2" I don't think is super expensive.
18:36:07 <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, at 4' of 1/2" it might be a little whip-y...
18:36:47 <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A so what, go up to 1" ?
18:36:58 <paul_c> * paul_c throws another gallon of gas on to the CCED fire.
18:37:16 <paul_c> * paul_c runs off for tea.
18:37:24 <A-L-P-H-A> nah... but the smallest I'd go is porbably 5/8.  probably go with the 3/4 myself.
18:37:27 <Jymmm> paul_c: you have it all wrong.... gas is so old-skool.... it's LN2
18:37:56 <A-L-P-H-A> damn... I'm super old skewl.
18:38:07 <A-L-P-H-A> blood form a virgin chicken.
18:39:39 <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, think this... it's not the OD that's holding the weight of the screw. it's the ID... threads are rolled into it.  the effective diameter a 1/2" ball screw is more like 3/8" dia.  3/8" at 4 ft... it may warp, and start resonating, causing havoc.
18:42:08 <Jymmm> small emergency here, gimme a few....
18:43:55 <A-L-P-H-A> np
18:46:54 <alex_joni> paul_c: still around?
18:47:10 <A-L-P-H-A> [13:41:15] * @paul_c throws another gallon of gas on to the CCED fire.
18:47:11 <A-L-P-H-A> [13:41:34] * @paul_c runs off for tea.
18:47:15 <A-L-P-H-A> EST -5 GMT
18:47:23 <alex_joni> I know that ALPHA
18:47:28 <alex_joni> ;)
18:48:13 <A-L-P-H-A> aj, if you know that... know what a good engraving font would be?  I want to engrave some dealer/small blind/big blind buttons for poker.
18:48:35 <anonimasu> hm, A-L-P-H-A if you find any let me know of it too
18:48:43 <anonimasu> I wish emc had a engraving macro..
18:48:55 <alex_joni> the CAM package usually has one
18:49:11 <anonimasu> I know that autocad comes with linefonts..
18:49:12 <anonimasu> :)
18:49:23 <A-L-P-H-A> linefonts don't matter.
18:49:26 <alex_joni> * alex_joni checks on Synergy
18:49:30 <A-L-P-H-A> "outline art" works awesome
18:50:03 <anonimasu> I'd want to have one inside the program so I can engrave serials for stuff..
18:50:20 <anonimasu> incrementally
18:51:27 <A-L-P-H-A> now, that would neat.
18:52:04 <anonimasu> you can I could design a font..
18:52:16 <anonimasu> err..
18:52:27 <anonimasu> but getting emc to engrave with it is the harder part..
18:52:31 <anonimasu> and to scale it :
18:52:32 <anonimasu> :)
18:59:06 <alex_joni> an0n: there are a lot of vectorial fonts out there
18:59:16 <alex_joni> you can scale those as big as you like
19:01:52 <anonimasu> alex_joni: I want g40097 Z12 "THIS IS A ENGRAVED THINGIE"
19:02:05 <anonimasu> :p
19:02:18 <alex_joni> right
19:02:23 <alex_joni> code it ;)
19:02:36 <alex_joni> but you'll need some more info
19:02:39 <alex_joni> like font
19:02:43 <alex_joni> size
19:02:43 <anonimasu> lol I dont know how
19:02:45 <anonimasu> yeah
19:02:52 <alex_joni> direction
19:02:52 <alex_joni> orientation
19:02:55 <alex_joni> etc
19:02:59 <anonimasu> yep
19:03:02 <alex_joni> that's why CAM programs exist
19:03:08 <alex_joni> to do exactly that ;)
19:03:11 <anonimasu> alex_joni: but cam programs dont allow you to do serials..
19:03:24 <alex_joni> hmmm .. really?
19:03:28 <anonimasu> alex_joni: "ser: $X"
19:03:28 <anonimasu> yeah
19:03:40 <alex_joni> but they could give you individual letters
19:03:46 <alex_joni> and use a script to make a serial
19:03:49 <anonimasu> hm.. yeah
19:03:56 <anonimasu> but I dont know of any program that can do that..
19:03:58 <anonimasu> maybe mastercam
19:04:16 <anonimasu> but on like a fanuc you have a engraving macro..
19:04:24 <anonimasu> macro/gcode..
19:04:38 <anonimasu> that you can use to engrave simple stuff..
19:04:42 <narnia> narnia has joined #emc
19:05:09 <anonimasu> I'll be back in a while going to mill a part in foam and go to the kiosk
19:05:17 <alex_joni> http://www.2linc.com/engraving_software.htm
19:05:24 <K`zan> K`zan has left #emc
19:05:42 <A-L-P-H-A> aj, anonimasu, remember that font thing I wanted to write.  well... took me 10 minutes. :) sweet.
19:05:51 <anonimasu> A-L-P-H-A: what?
19:06:02 <anonimasu> I dont remember..
19:06:32 <anonimasu> alex_joni: that wont help :)
19:06:41 <A-L-P-H-A> http://24.102.90.20/Fonts/ [this is off my computer]
19:06:43 <anonimasu> anyway, lets continue this later
19:06:51 <anonimasu> I need to run
19:06:57 <anonimasu> nice :)
19:08:29 <alex_joni> alpha: cool
19:09:25 <A-L-P-H-A> now, if I could save the images as png files, and just load them up to serve instead. :)
19:09:56 <A-L-P-H-A> ahh!
19:10:12 <A-L-P-H-A> imagepng($image_source, "filename");
19:11:03 <alex_joni> right ;)
19:16:06 <alex_joni> did you try DeskEngrave ?
19:37:52 <Jymmm> ok, emeregency diverted
19:42:05 <Jymmm> * Jymmm had to perfeorm a sewingappendectomy =)
19:45:57 <alex_joni> ouch.. on yourself?
19:46:14 <Jymmm> Nah, my gf's sewing machine.
19:46:23 <picnet> picnet has quit
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19:56:47 <acemi> acemi has joined #emc
19:56:57 <Jymmm> ok, I'm back (i think)
19:57:07 <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A you still aorund?
20:00:45 <Jymmm> hiwynn <--- cant find them
20:01:21 <alex_joni> * alex_joni thinks it's hiwin
20:01:47 <Jymmm> alex_joni wins the prize!!!  ty
20:01:55 <alex_joni> www.hiwin.com
20:02:02 <alex_joni> yw
20:02:35 <paul_c> * paul_c returns
20:02:43 <Jymmm> anyone heard of "hilead screws" ?
20:03:02 <Jymmm> return paul_c(NULL)
20:03:18 <Jymmm> err  VOID NULL
20:03:19 <alex_joni> hey paul_c
20:03:31 <alex_joni> wanted to ask you smthg.. but I forgot what
20:03:32 <alex_joni> :)
20:03:59 <A-L-P-H-A> heh
20:04:01 <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, sorry
20:04:05 <paul_c> * paul_c tries to guess
20:04:07 <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A np
20:04:12 <alex_joni> paul_c: I'm working on a simple configurator script (based on dialog), would that fit in CVS ?
20:04:33 <alex_joni> it's just smthg that could be run after ./configure and make
20:04:35 <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, hiwin.com is about $200 more expensive than roton.  So if you're on a budget, I suggest roton.  But give hiwin a call anyways, and see if they'll price compete on similar products.
20:04:51 <paul_c> emc 1 r 2 ?
20:04:59 <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A will do, and get a catalgo too =)
20:05:04 <alex_joni> not sure.. both I think
20:05:23 <alex_joni> emc1 more than emc2
20:05:31 <alex_joni> maybe emc2 too ;)
20:05:38 <Jymmm> e=mc2
20:05:47 <alex_joni> Jymmm wins the prize
20:05:51 <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, but if you're looking for precision ground stuff... GOOD LUCK! :)  Prices I was quoted 3 years ago, were like $1,800 an axis for something like 3ft. :) hehe
20:05:54 <alex_joni> now explain how you got there
20:06:00 <Jymmm> http://www.roton.com/images/hilead_screw.jpg
20:06:18 <Jymmm> alex_joni: tequilia, lots and lots of tequilia
20:06:19 <A-L-P-H-A> alex_joni, wanna help me sort engravable, versus not engravable fonts?  I have like 675 more fonts to go.
20:06:24 <A-L-P-H-A> from 800.
20:06:44 <Jymmm> *.ttf
20:06:46 <Jymmm> =)
20:07:00 <alex_joni> lol
20:07:22 <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, they're ALL TTF... but some are glyphic, versus more clean, outlined or single line width type fonts.
20:07:51 <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A: Eh, use em all!
20:08:28 <Jymmm> ttf are SUPPOSE to be vector based
20:08:53 <Jymmm> any pros/cons on using hilead over acme screw?
20:09:01 <A-L-P-H-A> gang: http://24.102.90.20/Fonts (unsorted) http://24.102.90.20/Fonts/engrabable http://24.102.90.20/Fonts/NOT
20:09:16 <A-L-P-H-A> http://24.102.90.20/Fonts/engravable/
20:10:08 <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A what are you using to sort/create the thumbnails?
20:10:20 <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, php. :)
20:10:26 <A-L-P-H-A> <-- PHP intermediate.
20:10:49 <Jymmm> ew
20:11:01 <Jymmm> nm
20:11:34 <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A php would be on it's knees if I had it do my font collection
20:11:37 <A-L-P-H-A> btw, not all the fonts are nice looking.  I'm not basing them on those criterias.
20:11:48 <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, how many thousands of fonts?
20:12:01 <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A: roughly... 300K
20:12:19 <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, I took out a few lines... I had the fonts thumbnails cached... but I took that out, since I'm sorting
20:12:30 <A-L-P-H-A> Jymmm, wanna rar them up, and send them allll over? :)
20:12:57 <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A: not really.... they're on DVD's
20:13:49 <Jymmm> and I'm in the middle of transfering art explosion 800k from 34 CD's to DVD's atm
20:14:17 <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A: My gf got it for me for my upcoming bday =)
20:14:30 <A-L-P-H-A> 300,000 fonts? each about 50K each.  that's only 15 gigs
20:14:41 <A-L-P-H-A> or am I smoking crack?
20:14:52 <A-L-P-H-A> no, that's right.
20:15:16 <A-L-P-H-A> 300,000 x 0.050 megs = 15,000 megs.  which is about 3 DVDs. :)
20:15:18 <Jymmm> something like that.
20:15:35 <A-L-P-H-A> 1.5 DVDs if you use DL.
20:15:51 <Jymmm> dl ?
20:15:53 <A-L-P-H-A> I wonder what would be quicker, snail mail, or transfering that.
20:15:53 <A-L-P-H-A> heh
20:19:24 <Jymmm> A-L-P-H-A so you were saying that even 1/2" would be whippy too?
20:20:14 <A-L-P-H-A> I'm saying that.
20:20:29 <A-L-P-H-A> the price diff isn't that much... so why not a little bigger.
20:20:32 <A-L-P-H-A> at 4ft.
20:20:55 <Jymmm> ok, so how much larger?  1" ?
20:21:36 <A-L-P-H-A> I'd probably use 3/4".  But 1" isn't that expensive from than at all.  you're looking at 4ft segment, 1 nut.  that's about $125USD + shipping.
20:22:20 <Jymmm> have you seen these hilead screws?
20:22:39 <A-L-P-H-A> no I haven't.
20:23:01 <Jymmm> http://www.roton.com/web/hilead.jsp
20:23:15 <Jymmm> they have a 5 degree angle on the threads
20:29:45 <A-L-P-H-A> dunno.  ballscrews = tried and true.  acme = tried and true.  Probably a reason why everyone doesn't use these hi-helix hilead screws.
20:34:48 <alex_joni> with Fest coming up.. I think we need enumerating stuff that needs discussion there
20:34:51 <alex_joni> http://www.redpoint.org.uk/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?TopicsForDeveloperDiscussionAt_EMC_Fest_2005
20:35:01 <alex_joni> * alex_joni leaves for half an hour
20:36:21 <alex_joni> alex_joni is now known as aj_away
20:36:26 <ray_> ray_ has joined #emc
20:37:19 <ray_> paul_c: I added a bit to wiki after your last.
20:38:04 <Imperator_> have also added a page, please can somebody test if the admin passwd is still ok :-)
20:39:14 <anonimasu> iab
20:41:22 <A-L-P-H-A> woohoo! on E!
20:41:30 <A-L-P-H-A> only 627 or so fonts to go
20:42:27 <anonimasu> hehe
20:42:49 <picnet> picnet has joined #emc
20:42:58 <anonimasu> the font architex that was on the page you pasted would you mind sharing it?
20:43:41 <anonimasu> ah found it
20:43:43 <anonimasu> :9
20:48:19 <paul_c> * paul_c finds ray_ 's changes...
20:50:13 <acemi> hi ray_,  my "axis following error" problem is solved, thank you again
20:50:31 <ray_> You're welcome.  Glad to help.
20:50:46 <paul_c> ray_: To be honest, we don't need to provide tags & values for ini params that are common to all configurations.
20:51:22 <ray_> Could you explain that a bit more.
20:52:17 <paul_c> For example, TASK
20:52:43 <paul_c> [TASK] will have a TASK, & CYCLE_TIME
20:53:50 <paul_c> [TRAJ] will always have the same param in any ini file...
20:54:18 <paul_c> So these don't need to be in an xml definition....
20:54:45 <Jymmm> *cough*trator*cough*
20:54:49 <ray_> But we need to pass all vars and good values to a tickle config
20:55:28 <anonimasu> Jymmm: what?
20:55:38 <anonimasu> * anonimasu agrees
20:55:42 <anonimasu> with ray..
20:55:58 <paul_c> but surely the config program would know what are essential vars, and perhaps have some rules coded in ?
20:56:56 <ray_> I was thinking that the tickle config would have none of this.
20:57:11 <ray_> That way the master or data file would be all that would need to be changed
20:57:17 <ray_> when a new var comes along.
20:57:24 <ray_> or an old var goes away.
20:58:04 <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
20:59:19 <ray_> I believe that by doing this we can extract all ini sections into a single tickle var
20:59:33 <ray_> and then foreach var $mastervar
20:59:45 <ray_> and build the tk screens from that.
21:00:19 <ray_> I really like what you did with the foomod
21:00:35 <ray_> It has all of the necessary vars in there.
21:00:47 <ray_> This will work good for a gui.
21:01:11 <ray_> From that we get the list of vars that tillie needs to deal with
21:01:27 <paul_c> I just looked at it from the point of what would a module provide, and what params does it need.
21:01:30 <ray_> Then from the var definition sections we get the values or range of values
21:02:01 <ray_> Sorry.  I think vars rather params.
21:02:36 <ray_> But Yes.  The foomod provides params needed by foomod.
21:02:44 <paul_c> vars, params - The term is interchangable.
21:03:00 <ray_> So when foomod is selected from the list of possible mods we get the list needed.
21:03:27 <ray_> I think that we should get the specific characteristics of those params from a separate param listing.
21:03:46 <paul_c> "a list of what is needed" that isn't common to all..
21:04:10 <ray_> <param name=PERIOD>
21:04:44 <ray_>  <param name=PERIOD type=float>
21:05:20 <paul_c> can I interrupt at that point...
21:05:41 <paul_c> One change I would like to see....
21:05:55 <paul_c> PERIOD being defined as an int.
21:06:15 <ray_> Okay.  Rather than as a float for time.
21:06:20 <paul_c> and get rid of the dependency on dc in the run script.
21:06:23 <aj_away> aj_away is now known as alex_joni
21:06:24 <ray_> Number of ??
21:06:27 <alex_joni> * alex_joni is back
21:06:43 <paul_c> define it in terms of µSec
21:07:02 <ray_> I thought that was what it was now.
21:07:28 <paul_c> 0.000050 Secs
21:07:45 <paul_c> That's not a nice number to pass at insmod time.
21:07:52 <paul_c> 40 is.
21:08:06 <ray_> What is the units of 40
21:08:13 <ray_> usec
21:08:16 <paul_c> µSec
21:08:51 <ray_> periods/sec
21:09:25 <alex_joni> I just finished catching up.. I agree on the PERIOD
21:09:45 <alex_joni> the python configurator Martin did guessed that value
21:09:48 <ray_> I'm a bit lost on the Sec thing.
21:09:56 <alex_joni> maybe that's a valid thing to do?
21:10:13 <alex_joni> ray_: lost where?
21:10:42 <SWP_away> SWP_away is now known as SWPadnos
21:10:47 <ray_> I agree that 0.000005 is a difficult number to use
21:10:49 <SWPadnos> * SWPadnos is reading the log
21:10:51 <ray_> 40 is much better.
21:10:53 <paul_c> The ini file shows PERIOD as a float in terms of whole seconds
21:11:07 <ray_> I just don't know how 40 relates to 0.000005
21:11:12 <alex_joni> and the generic.run does some math to convert it
21:11:16 <alex_joni> it's 50 not 40
21:11:30 <paul_c> where as any params passed to a module at load time must be integers...
21:11:38 <alex_joni> 0.000005 secs = 50 usecs
21:11:48 <alex_joni> darn
21:11:50 <paul_c> so 0.00005 becomes 50
21:11:50 <alex_joni> 5 usecs
21:12:00 <alex_joni> I have an extra 0 in there
21:12:15 <ray_> Alright I'm not lost any more than I was before this discussion began.
21:12:17 <paul_c> See how one "0" can mess things up ?
21:12:31 <alex_joni> paul_c: you started with the 40 ;)
21:12:39 <ray_> I copy and paste and then change the number.
21:12:52 <paul_c> (the 40 was fat fingers getting a 4 instead of a 5)
21:12:56 <alex_joni> you only need to divide/multiply by a million
21:13:01 <ray_> I agree absolutely that 40 microseconds is much better than whatever that darn float is.
21:13:26 <alex_joni> and the extra 0 is because of my darn finger-shivering ;)
21:13:53 <ray_> Okay we all agree to change the PERIOD variable in some future release.
21:14:33 <paul_c> alex_joni: Bash does not do floating point math - You have to use a command line calculator which increases the size of the minimum base install.
21:14:37 <ray_> Could we do that as a if big number then ---> and if small then ---->
21:15:11 <ray_> That way we can make our changes to configuration stuff without confusing most of the users.
21:15:23 <alex_joni> paul_c: I agree.. but you still need a way to convert it from 0.000005 to 50 (either count the 0 or whatever)
21:15:33 <alex_joni> so it's nicer to only use 50
21:16:15 <ray_> I think this will make it much easier to explain period and how period works with setup and hold.
21:16:20 <ray_> and such.
21:18:17 <SWPadnos> OK - so the TRAJ section is always the same (probably)
21:18:35 <SWPadnos> the possibility of doing HAL-only ladder logic things would be an exception
21:19:19 <SWPadnos> (but it should also be pretty simple to put the TRAJ variable limits into a definition file)
21:19:28 <paul_c> Hmmm... Does PROBE_* need to be TRAJ, or should it be in the IO section ?
21:19:41 <alex_joni> I vote for IO
21:20:01 <paul_c> * paul_c agrees
21:20:28 <SWPadnos> maybe a PROB={yes,no} in TRAJ though (then if yes, requires the corresponding IO section vars)
21:20:31 <SWPadnos> PROBE
21:21:18 <paul_c> Why litter up a config with redundant params ?
21:21:43 <SWPadnos> so that each section stands on its own
21:21:51 <paul_c> if PROBE_INDEX exists, then PROBE=yes by implication
21:22:12 <SWPadnos> true enough
21:22:43 <SWPadnos> though the generic.ini has a PROBE_* defined, even though I have no probe on my machine
21:23:01 <SWPadnos> (but this configurator may eliminate that)
21:23:06 <ray_> There are a bunch of these kinds of variables that got into the wrong section.
21:23:29 <SWPadnos> (like RS274NGC_STARTUP_CODE :) )
21:23:32 <paul_c> generic.ini also has setup & hold times, even though a servo card does not use them.
21:23:36 <ray_> Will we have to change source files like inivar
21:23:57 <alex_joni> ray_: inivar .. don't think so
21:24:03 <alex_joni> the call to inivar.. yes
21:24:12 <ray_> okay.
21:25:10 <paul_c> * paul_c greps for inivar & PROBE_INDEX
21:25:12 <alex_joni> and the .c files actually reading the ini
21:26:09 <ray_> Dont you hate it when that happens.
21:26:10 <alex_joni> initraj.cc
21:26:44 <SWPadnos> where is initraj.cc
21:27:03 <alex_joni> the code in initraj.cc would need to go over to ini-(someio).cc
21:27:07 <SWPadnos> nevermind
21:27:11 <alex_joni> emc/src/emcnml
21:27:33 <paul_c> RS274NGC_STARTUP_CODE is handled by a single call.
21:27:45 <paul_c> in emctaskmain.cc
21:28:20 <SWPadnos> Ah - right - it's an EMC variable of what to send to the interpreter, rather than an interpreter initialization string
21:28:33 <SWPadnos> It might still belong in the interpreter section though
21:29:22 <alex_joni> the only difference would be : (inistring = inifile.find("RS274NGC_STARTUP_CODE", "RS274NGC")))
21:30:12 <SWPadnos> yes - not too horrendous a change :)
21:30:20 <paul_c> It doesn't really matter where an ini parameter is parsed....
21:30:23 <SWPadnos> (though it would break all existing installations)
21:30:48 <paul_c> If Ray feels a particular param is better suited to being elsewhere, we can change the code.
21:31:29 <ray_> If you think it's more trouble, and it does look a bit like it, then let's not do anything right now.
21:32:11 <SWPadnos> maybe put the "fix" in emc2, or wait for fest (when people assume things will be broken :) )
21:32:25 <paul_c> Most ini parameters are parsed in one source file, so it is one line to edit.
21:32:45 <ray_> Okay.  Fest it is.
21:33:20 <alex_joni> I think RS274NGC_STARTUP_CODE is the only one not parsed in inixxx.cc files
21:33:56 <ray_> I've put a few custom ones in for special tasks.  I read them from the gui 
21:34:07 <alex_joni> right
21:34:44 <SWPadnos> Added "rearange .ini file" to  http://www.redpoint.org.uk/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?TopicsForDeveloperDiscussionAt_EMC_Fest_2005
21:34:55 <paul_c> NML_FILE, SHMEM_KEY, and a couple of others are parsed by several sources.
21:35:03 <Jymmm> eeesh... 50k different types of acme rods
21:36:23 <SWPadnos> SHMEM_KEY and possibly some others should be gettable from an EMC library function - there's no reason for that to be parsed 72 times
21:36:34 <Jymmm> oil finish, chromium molybdenum, 304 SS, 316 SS, ZP carbon, 
21:36:41 <SWPadnos> (assuming lots of small HAL files)
21:37:08 <SWPadnos> This is where a generic validation scheme would come in handy
21:37:20 <SWPadnos> there's already a generic .ini reader
21:38:17 <SWPadnos> but it would be great to have a struct that has ("name", type, &var, min, max), and have a single function call walk that array and fill in the values
21:38:52 <ray_> yea yea yea what he said.
21:39:16 <SWPadnos> then we can use the same source file for the configurator
21:39:27 <SWPadnos> (it's like "reusable code" :) )
21:40:17 <ray_> I agree that a configurator could directly "walk" values into the struct 
21:40:44 <ray_> but it would be well to continue to have some intermediate plain text file.
21:41:14 <SWPadnos> yes - absolutely
21:41:54 <SWPadnos> sorry - I often mix theroetical "it would be great to do it this way" with more practical "it can be done soon this way"
21:43:37 <ray_> No problem.  I'm a lot that way myself.
21:45:16 <Jymmm> SWPadnos: As long as you don't apply those to your sex life, you'll be alright =)
21:45:25 <SWPadnos> So - I'm returning to the (way old now) topic of config file hierarchy
21:45:34 <SWPadnos> Jymmm: I'm all practice there.
21:45:49 <CIA-4> 03alex_joni 07autoconf_install_0_1 * 10emc2/bin/configurator: 
21:45:58 <CIA-4> added a first version of text-only configurator. This is of use to Aunt Tillie
21:45:58 <CIA-4> later on. Right now it's not really functional, but it demonstrates how it could
21:45:58 <CIA-4> look and behave later on. It's 'dialog' based, and presents the user with a
21:45:58 <CIA-4> question at a time. In the end it should select an default config based on the
21:45:58 <CIA-4> answers given by the user
21:45:58 <Jymmm> SWPadnos: there ya go =)
21:46:30 <alex_joni> who wants to try it out?
21:47:00 <SWPadnos> * SWPadnos is typing cvs commands
21:47:49 <alex_joni> which reminds me.. 
21:47:56 <alex_joni> this is a special branch ;)
21:48:07 <alex_joni> * alex_joni wonders if paul_c remembers
21:49:30 <ray_> oops.  What's the branch name.
21:49:42 <alex_joni> -r autoconf_install_0_1
21:51:30 <SWPadnos> where does it need to be run?  (I run it, and some error flashes past, then the terminal clears)
21:52:14 <alex_joni> check if you have dialog
21:52:22 <alex_joni> which dialog
21:52:25 <anonimasu> * anonimasu starts digging into some NML
21:52:46 <alex_joni> * alex_joni hands anonimasu a very BIG showel
21:52:51 <anonimasu> thanks
21:52:56 <anonimasu> ^_^
21:53:11 <alex_joni> -_^
21:54:14 <anonimasu> but maybe I should wait until tomorrow afternoon when I have the machine in the shop connected
21:54:52 <ray_> 1618kB on apt dialog
21:55:03 <SWPadnos> ah yes - apt-get dialog fixed the problem
21:55:17 <alex_joni> * alex_joni waits for comments
21:56:01 <SWPadnos> does it output anything, or is this to show a possible UI?
21:56:03 <alex_joni> it doesn't actually do anything ;)
21:56:10 <alex_joni> just for possible UI
21:56:10 <SWPadnos> OK
21:56:19 <SWPadnos> It looks very debian-ish :)
21:56:20 <alex_joni> it's a simple bash script
21:56:40 <alex_joni> to me it looks very RH-ish (back to RH5.x )
21:56:51 <alex_joni> the RedHat installer used to look this way ;)
21:56:59 <SWPadnos> true
21:57:18 <alex_joni> anyways.. what do you think?
21:57:25 <alex_joni> should I go on on this path?
21:57:30 <alex_joni> is it useable?
21:57:37 <acemi> is there a way to start the next cycle after an outside signal is received?
21:57:49 <alex_joni> acemi: what cycle?
21:57:55 <acemi> G code
21:57:59 <alex_joni> you mean wait for an input?
21:58:03 <acemi> yes
21:58:06 <alex_joni> what emc?
21:58:11 <alex_joni> 1 / 2?
21:58:12 <acemi> emc1
21:58:30 <Jymmm> oh man... doesn't acme rod come in 4' lenghts?
21:58:37 <ray_> * ray_ twiddles thumbs waiting for bits to dribble in.
22:00:20 <alex_joni> acemi: afraid I don't know of a G-function that would do that
22:00:38 <alex_joni> ray_: maybe you know one? (should wait for an input)
22:01:11 <anonimasu> m00
22:01:13 <anonimasu> ;)
22:01:23 <anonimasu> should wait for a input..
22:01:35 <anonimasu> or well, for a confrimation..
22:01:56 <SWPadnos> alex_joni: That looks fine for a text-mode configurator.  great! :)
22:02:21 <anonimasu> hm..
22:02:27 <anonimasu> I need to check it out tomorrow
22:02:29 <anonimasu> :)
22:02:29 <alex_joni> if you look at the file .. you'll see, I didn't do much ;)
22:02:42 <SWPadnos> well - I'm easily impressed :)
22:02:57 <SWPadnos> (It's the backend that'll be all the fun :) )
22:03:14 <acemi> i'm trying to syncronize emc with an other machine
22:03:48 <alex_joni> acemi: what if you used the probe signal?
22:04:25 <acemi> i don't know what is probe signal, but i note it
22:05:07 <alex_joni> well.. probing is used to move the tool (a probe) till it touches the part
22:05:15 <alex_joni> that process is called probing
22:05:39 <alex_joni> but you could hijack that function and make your mill move (very very slowly) till it gets an signal
22:06:00 <alex_joni> it would think it touched the piece with the probe, but you wouldn't care
22:06:28 <acemi> hmm, that wil work maybe
22:06:45 <alex_joni> it's G38.2
22:07:03 <ottos> ottos has joined #emc
22:07:11 <ottos> day gents.
22:07:39 <alex_joni> * alex_joni wonders what happens if acemi uses G38.2 with F0
22:07:40 <acemi> thanks alex_joni, i'll try this
22:07:49 <alex_joni> day ottos
22:08:04 <alex_joni> acemi: you have a PROBE_INPUT in your ini file
22:08:14 <alex_joni> that defines the input pin on the parport
22:08:40 <acemi> i don't know, i use default ini files
22:08:51 <alex_joni> generic.ini ?
22:09:00 <acemi> emc.ini
22:09:20 <alex_joni> BDI ?
22:09:35 <acemi> BDI live CD
22:14:21 <alex_joni> you might need to change the value in the ini
22:14:39 <alex_joni> in the section [TRAJ] there is PROBE_INPUT
22:14:46 <anonimasu> hm bbiab.. going to plug the mill in ;)
22:15:05 <alex_joni> PROBE_INDEX ;)
22:15:29 <acemi> i'll try this tomorrow (i'm at home now). i think, this is OK for me
22:15:36 <alex_joni> acemi: I would try PROBE_INDEX = 11
22:16:00 <alex_joni> that would be pin 11 on parport (S6)
22:16:44 <alex_joni> ooops... sorry
22:16:52 <acemi> ?
22:17:39 <alex_joni> PROBE_INDEX = 3 should be S6 (pin 11 on parport)
22:18:09 <alex_joni> I just checked and the parport driver numbers the inputs from 0-4 (S3-S7 on the parport)
22:18:23 <alex_joni> but I never used this.. so I might be wrong :)
22:18:43 <acemi> this is not a problem, i understand the way
22:18:53 <alex_joni> but there's a probing.tcl script
22:18:57 <alex_joni> that might help you
22:19:12 <alex_joni> you run it, and it should show you when the signal is tripped or not
22:21:08 <acemi> thanks alex_joni 
22:21:17 <alex_joni> don't mention it ;)
22:23:11 <SWPadnos> "PROBE_INDEX=3 should be S6 (pin 11 on parport" - I guess that's why we're talking about a configurator :)
22:23:24 <SWPadnos> (3 != 6 != 11)
22:23:29 <alex_joni> SWP: that's read from the sources ;)
22:24:06 <SWPadnos> I don't doubt its accuracy ;)
22:24:51 <jmkasunich> ray_: you still here?
22:25:02 <alex_joni> parport.c, extintf.h, extppt.c, emcmot.c
22:25:06 <ray_> yep.
22:25:10 <alex_joni> SWP: I do doubt it's accuracy ;)
22:25:19 <SWPadnos> heh - smart man :)
22:25:22 <jmkasunich> just sent you an email with the inventory of AC servo motors, etc...
22:25:34 <ray_> k
22:25:47 <Jymmm> AC ?
22:25:52 <jmkasunich> yeah
22:25:58 <Jymmm> no DC ?
22:26:01 <alex_joni> * alex_joni drools
22:26:01 <jmkasunich> nope
22:26:08 <alex_joni> AC is a lot better than DC ;)
22:26:16 <jmkasunich> if you have the drives for them
22:26:18 <alex_joni> if you got some nice servos..
22:26:22 <alex_joni> right
22:26:33 <Jymmm> oh servo, no stepper. my bad
22:26:42 <alex_joni> power (speed) and control
22:26:44 <Jymmm> s/no/not/
22:27:10 <alex_joni> steppers got control, DC's got power, AC's got both ;)
22:27:29 <Jymmm> who makes controllers for them?
22:27:37 <alex_joni> you could ;)
22:27:49 <alex_joni> it's a 6 transistor H-bridge
22:27:55 <ottos> what size for the ac servos?
22:27:57 <SWPadnos> Allen Bradley, Baldor, etc.
22:28:11 <jmkasunich> 1 to 3 kW
22:28:17 <SWPadnos> A 3E bridge?
22:28:18 <ottos> nice..
22:28:20 <alex_joni> perfect for small apps ;)
22:28:32 <alex_joni> SWP: right
22:28:53 <Jymmm> Eh, if there was a PCB laready, ok.
22:29:00 <alex_joni> PWM at > 15kHz... and you're done ;)
22:29:01 <jmkasunich> I have "axis modules", which contains the 3 phase H bridge, but not the control electronics
22:29:19 <SWPadnos> cool - *that* I could use :)
22:29:28 <Jymmm> jmkasunich: well, why the hell not?!  =)
22:29:36 <Jymmm> * Jymmm chuckles
22:29:37 <acemi> acemi has quit
22:30:22 <jmkasunich> it's a modular product... control/power supply section connects to up to 4 axis modules
22:30:29 <jmkasunich> url in a sec
22:30:47 <alex_joni> * alex_joni prepares for bed
22:30:54 <Jymmm> All you guys are just mean bastards you know that?!   Torture me with XML, then tease me with AC servos!
22:30:59 <SWPadnos> (If I had the time, it would be fun to make one of my Motorola DSPs control that motor)
22:31:10 <alex_joni> SWP: what DSPs?
22:31:26 <SWPadnos> <servo><type>AC</type></servo>
22:31:36 <SWPadnos> I have a 56F800 development kit
22:31:39 <jmkasunich> I may be able to bring some motors/axis modules to fest
22:31:45 <SWPadnos> it has 6 PWM, and is meant for motor control
22:31:49 <jmkasunich> to much hassle to ship them tho
22:31:55 <alex_joni> SWP: cool
22:32:17 <SWPadnos> actually, this one may have 2 banks of 6 PWM
22:32:24 <SWPadnos> plus quadrature timers, etc.
22:32:39 <Jymmm> lol @ SWPadnos
22:33:22 <SWPadnos> In the words of some scantily-clad Star Trek lady "For what purpose?"
22:34:10 <Jymmm> SWPadnos: oh that narrows downs the timeline...
22:34:24 <SWPadnos> ST:TOS :)
22:34:28 <Jymmm> SWPadnos: what color is her skin?  green?
22:34:33 <SWPadnos> came out about the same time I did :)
22:35:22 <Jymmm> TOS?  TNG, DS9, ok, but TOS ?
22:35:32 <anonimasu> * anonimasu yawns
22:35:34 <anonimasu> goodnight everyone
22:35:40 <alex_joni> night an0n
22:35:42 <Jymmm> night anonimasu
22:35:44 <SWPadnos> No - I think white.  from the episode "Spock's Brain, I believe.
22:35:48 <SWPadnos> night anonimasu
22:36:05 <SWPadnos> "spock's Brain", I believe (there fingers - take that!)
22:36:22 <SWPadnos> aaaargrggghhhh  -Spock  stupid fingers
22:36:38 <Jymmm> \\//_
22:36:48 <SWPadnos> thank you - same
22:36:53 <Jymmm> lol
22:37:31 <Jymmm> I much prefer 7of9 in costum or Dax
22:37:48 <SWPadnos> Well - you have a point (several, actually)
22:38:05 <alex_joni> * alex_joni agrees ;)
22:38:17 <SWPadnos> Jeri Ryan to the rescue
22:38:35 <Jymmm> she does NOT look the same out of costum though.
22:38:53 <SWPadnos> I've never seen her out of costume - bummer
22:39:05 <SWPadnos> (Oh - not dressed as a Borg :) )
22:39:10 <Jymmm> shes been a in a few tv shows
22:39:29 <SWPadnos> I've noticed that a lot of people look different when you're behind the camera
22:39:34 <SWPadnos> and they are too
22:39:35 <Jymmm> SWPadnos no, not dressed in that skin tight output with padding in all teh right places.
22:39:45 <Jymmm> s/output/outfit/
22:40:04 <ray_> ray_ has quit
22:40:12 <SWPadnos> s/outfit/nothing/
22:40:35 <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Actually, she looks better in costum than nude imo
22:40:50 <SWPadnos> indeed.
22:41:24 <jmkasunich> not Jeri Ryan, but... http://home.att.net/~jmkasunich/Pics/motors.jpg
22:41:31 <joe2000chevy> joe2000chevy has joined #emc
22:41:37 <joe2000chevy> hello
22:41:43 <jmkasunich> hi
22:41:58 <anonimasu> hm.. it just occured to me..
22:41:59 <joe2000chevy> I just found and installed DBI/EMC
22:42:01 <anonimasu> the fonts in linux suck..
22:42:02 <anonimasu> :)
22:42:12 <joe2000chevy> good looking program
22:42:24 <SWPadnos> nice motors.
22:42:32 <alex_joni> joe2000chevy: glad to hear that
22:42:34 <anonimasu> * anonimasu is running with the display to the laptop inside..
22:42:40 <joe2000chevy> worked right off the bat with my diy cnc router
22:42:54 <alex_joni> * alex_joni wants some ;)
22:43:02 <alex_joni> jmk: nice motors ;)
22:43:07 <SWPadnos> I can't stand the size of my EMC machines screen - hence the cygwin-X scenario
22:43:10 <joe2000chevy> just one thing i need to figure out is making it move 1" instead of .3"
22:43:16 <jmkasunich> if they were lighter, I'd send you some
22:43:17 <Jymmm> alex_joni: you get Radio Shack motors and like it!
22:43:26 <SWPadnos> where are you?
22:43:27 <paul_c> * paul_c notes BDI-4.18 will take another 6Hrs to upload....
22:43:34 <jmkasunich> who, me or alex?
22:43:40 <jmkasunich> I'm in Cleveland, OH
22:43:49 <SWPadnos> * SWPadnos thinks paul_c needs a faster upstream connection
22:43:53 <SWPadnos> * SWPadnos too
22:43:55 <alex_joni> joe2000chevy: you actually tell it to move 1'' and it moves .3'' ?
22:43:56 <Jymmm> jmkasunich: whats the dimensions (max) ?
22:44:02 <jmkasunich> of the motors?
22:44:04 <SWPadnos> jmkasunich: you.
22:44:08 <alex_joni> SWP: it's sherlines connection that sux
22:44:09 <SWPadnos> right - the motors :)
22:44:10 <paul_c> join #clusterix
22:44:11 <joe2000chevy> well thats the default
22:44:28 <jmkasunich> most are about 4" square
22:44:36 <anonimasu> hm, my nml poking can wait until tomorrow
22:44:40 <jmkasunich> hold on while I look em up on the AB website
22:44:45 <joe2000chevy> I'm using a 1/2" treaded rod 13 turns/in
22:44:49 <paul_c> alex_joni: Not uploading to Sherline.
22:44:51 <Jymmm> jmkasunich: length with shaft?
22:44:53 <alex_joni> joe2000chevy: each axis has an parameter to tell it how the motor turning actually moves the table
22:45:11 <alex_joni> joe2000chevy: you need to change that
22:45:23 <joe2000chevy> in the INI?
22:45:32 <SWPadnos> paul_c: is there an IP address I can get it from or is it linmited by your upstream speed?
22:46:05 <paul_c> SWPadnos: Please don't hit my server tonight...
22:46:17 <alex_joni> joe2000chevy: yes
22:46:21 <paul_c> the www is slow enough as it is.
22:46:29 <jmkasunich> www.ab.com/motion/servo/1326ab_460V.html
22:46:30 <SWPadnos> I won't.  I can put it on my webspace for pushing to the mirrors (and as a mirror)
22:46:32 <Jymmm> SWPadnos (give his server an asprin, THEN hit it tongight) 
22:46:41 <jmkasunich> I have sizes 410, 420, and 520
22:46:46 <alex_joni> joe2000chevy: I assume you have 3 axes?
22:46:49 <anonimasu> well goodnight :)
22:46:55 <paul_c> * paul_c hits Jymmm 
22:47:01 <Jymmm> jmkasunich: which has the max length with shaft?
22:47:11 <alex_joni> * alex_joni hands Jymmm an aspirine
22:47:15 <Jymmm> paul_c: awwww, I didn't know you cared *blush*
22:47:30 <paul_c> SWPadnos: It should be on one of the mirrors by lunchtime tomorrow.
22:47:43 <jmkasunich> I believe there is a PDF on that page, with dimension drawings
22:47:46 <paul_c> * paul_c goes to get the *big* stick.
22:47:49 <Jymmm> jmkasunich: anyhow, is it over 11" long?
22:47:59 <jmkasunich> 410 us the shortest, might be under 11"
22:48:00 <SWPadnos> that page doesn't load for me - 404
22:48:44 <jmkasunich> I've had problems accessing the AB pages from linux - dumbasses must have optimized it for winblows
22:48:56 <Jymmm> no, for sessions
22:49:02 <SWPadnos> I'm on winblows, though using Mozilla
22:49:28 <Jymmm> jmkasunich: Ok, USPS does have unlimited weight (under 75#'s) if you use their boxes
22:49:37 <jmkasunich> this box is linux, and I didn't even try - too many probs in the past... I have a win95 box running here too
22:50:12 <Jymmm> jmkasunich: 11" x 8.5" x 5.5"  and  12" x 3.5" x 14"
22:50:46 <Jymmm> jmkasunich: You can NOT make the box expand out or will be rejected
22:50:58 <jmkasunich> hmmm... most of mine are -21 catalog numbers, seems to mean they have resolvers 
22:51:00 <jmkasunich> yuck
22:51:15 <jmkasunich> some are -SL or -ML tho, those have encoders
22:51:22 <SWPadnos> paul_c: just offering to offload transfer from your machine(s) - I have a 192GB/month limit, and since there's nothing on my site yet, a BDI mirror is OK.
22:51:27 <Jymmm> jmkasunich: flat rate $8
22:51:56 <jmkasunich> it's not just the $8, it's the box, and foam, and time spent packing, etc, etc.
22:52:14 <jmkasunich> hard to pack very dense objects so that will mail safely
22:52:16 <paul_c> SWPadnos: I will bare it in mind when BDI-4.19 is ready.
22:52:17 <SWPadnos> I'll treat you to Thai food for a couple of motors :)
22:52:24 <SWPadnos> paul_c: ok
22:52:57 <paul_c> * paul_c opens the ab.com page
22:53:00 <jmkasunich> I offerred Ray dibs a while back, but you have a deal once he's got what he needs - I can bring them to fest
22:53:06 <jmkasunich> (oh, you're flying...)
22:53:08 <Jymmm> jmkasunich: fine, toss a stamp on them and throw in the mailbox!
22:53:18 <SWPadnos> I'll see if I can stuff any under the seat in front of me on the way home :)
22:53:23 <SWPadnos> (in a puddle jumper)
22:53:31 <jmkasunich> we'll work out something
22:53:50 <SWPadnos> cool - thanks.  I've been wanting to experiment with 3-phase drives.
22:54:17 <jmkasunich> I can give you a couple axis modules too... I have at least 16 of those
22:54:34 <alex_joni> jmk: what transistors on those?
22:54:43 <SWPadnos> that would be ideal for me - I'm much happier dealing with digital electronics and software than power electronics
22:54:44 <jmkasunich> 1200V IGBTs
22:55:02 <alex_joni> nice ;)
22:55:09 <alex_joni> I'd want some of those ;)
22:55:16 <SWPadnos> boy - that's a nice cabinet you've got there :)
22:55:22 <jmkasunich> the module includes optically isolated gate drivers, LEM current feedback on two phases, and a PCB with an analog current loop and PWM generators
22:55:35 <jmkasunich> you mean cabinet.jpg?
22:55:38 <alex_joni> * alex_joni whines
22:55:45 <SWPadnos> no - the one the motors are in :)
22:56:03 <jmkasunich> http://home.att.net/~jmkasunich/Pics/cabinet.jpg
22:56:08 <SWPadnos> ooh - that one's cool too
22:56:24 <jmkasunich> ray has dibs on that
22:56:29 <SWPadnos> eek - Allen-Bradley - that must be a $9000 control panel
22:56:51 <SWPadnos> what about the yellow cat carrier?
22:56:56 <SWPadnos> (just kidding)
22:57:00 <jmkasunich> the upper part is a 6180 industrial PC... 200MHZ pentium I think
22:57:19 <SWPadnos> I've seen some on eBay - they're often going for $400-$1000, for similar speeds.
22:57:47 <alex_joni> well .. this is it for me
22:57:49 <SWPadnos> I bought a kiosk PC - celeron 500/256M/20G with 800x600 color LCD for $300
22:57:50 <jmkasunich> this one is missing the special video card that drives the LCD, but I think I have one around here somewhere
22:57:53 <alex_joni> night everybody
22:57:56 <SWPadnos> night
22:57:58 <jmkasunich> 'night alex
22:58:11 <Jymmm> night alex_joni
22:58:14 <alex_joni> alex_joni has left #emc
22:58:42 <jmkasunich> I just pulled an AB6181 out of the dumpster... newer than this... only about 10" x 8" x 6" deep, 600MHz P3
22:59:09 <SWPadnos> I wish there were dumpsters like that around here.
22:59:10 <paul_c> PC104 bus ?
22:59:13 <Jymmm> jmkasunich man you have all the cool dumpsters over there!
22:59:14 <jmkasunich> works fine, except that somebody broke the glass in front of the LCD and about 20% of the screen doesn't work
22:59:45 <jmkasunich> shhhh... I work for AB.... the dumpster is where all the old trade show exhibits, etc, wind up 
22:59:49 <Jymmm> jmkasunich thats it? eeesh lcd's are easy to replce
23:00:06 <SWPadnos> cool - I'll have to start hanging out at the loading docks
23:00:10 <SWPadnos> (if we had any around here)
23:00:18 <Jymmm> jmkasunich OHHHHHHHH.... I'll be there tuesday with a "garbage truck"  =)
23:01:09 <paul_c> It's only a few miles further east before you hit the coast
23:01:27 <jmkasunich> further east from where?
23:01:28 <paul_c> A chance to collect your lasers.
23:01:50 <jmkasunich> where are you at Jymmm?
23:01:57 <Jymmm> paul_c: Well, If I can grab a whole bounty in one shot, just might bw worht it then =)
23:02:00 <Jymmm> jmkasunich: Calif
23:02:09 <jmkasunich> long haul there
23:02:35 <Jymmm> jmkasunich: Yeah, just the stuff sucks around here anymore, no more mfg. 
23:02:51 <Jymmm> there's more "FOR LEASE" than mfg'ing going on.
23:03:35 <jmkasunich> mostly we have approx 3-4 year old PCs getting scrapped... but every once in a while a lab has a cleanup and good stuff appears
23:04:03 <SWPadnos> I wish that would happen at the IBM plant down the street
23:04:21 <jmkasunich> and sometimes there is nice puter stuff too, rackmount server stuff, etc
23:05:35 <jmkasunich> this came from an old Exabyte tape changer.  It will be the Y and Z axis for a tabletop wax/wood/plastic milling machine eventually http://home.att.net/~jmkasunich/Pics/miniservo1.jpg
23:07:20 <jmkasunich> 11" x 0.0001" on Y, 3.3" x 0.00016" on Z
23:08:10 <Jymmm> jmkasunich: I was just playing. I am only seriously looking for a operational CO2 laser, 50 - 140 Watts sealed of flowing.
23:08:19 <Jymmm> s/of/or/
23:08:25 <Jymmm> prefer flowing
23:09:01 <jmkasunich> robinsz is our resident laser nut
23:10:21 <Jymmm> jmkasunich: I found TWO in NY, but unknown condition. the problem is the freight is more than both of them.
23:10:38 <Jymmm> $800 for the lasers, $900 for the freight.
23:10:51 <jmkasunich> yeah, freight sucks for big stuff
23:10:53 <SWPadnos> I'm in Vermont, but I have no space for them :)
23:11:07 <Jymmm> even if one worked bwtween the two, I'd be happy.
23:11:12 <jmkasunich> there are usually some large lasers at one local surplus place here
23:11:14 <joe2000chevy> ok how do i find the EMC.ini file?
23:11:48 <joe2000chevy> in noew to linux as well
23:11:51 <joe2000chevy> new
23:12:06 <SWPadnos> it should be in your emc directory, /usr/local/emc/ (I think)
23:12:21 <joe2000chevy> ok i will go look
23:12:50 <jmkasunich> http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/Detail.asp?PartNum=09-120-205
23:13:10 <jmkasunich> http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/Detail.asp?PartNum=09-120-214
23:13:27 <jmkasunich> http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/Detail.asp?PartNum=09-120-662
23:14:45 <jmkasunich> how bout this one: http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/Detail.asp?PartNum=20-101-001
23:15:48 <Jymmm> jmkasunich: I'm workign with a couple places right now. Hopefully that'll work out.
23:16:00 <ottos> ciao gents..
23:16:02 <ottos> ottos has quit
23:16:09 <Jymmm> jmkasunich one being in SD area, so that's only a 6 hour drive.
23:16:34 <jmkasunich> much better ;-)
23:17:25 <Jymmm> jmkasunich: Eh, we'll see. He seems a bit flaky. Anothe one in the midwest seems more interested in a colaberation 
23:17:34 <SWPadnos> South Dakota in 6 hours - impressive
23:17:48 <jmkasunich> I'm guessing San Deigo
23:17:49 <Jymmm> SWPadnos: SAN
23:18:02 <Jymmm> SWPadnos: San Diego, not BFE
23:18:19 <SWPadnos> (duh :) )
23:18:50 <Jymmm> Though I have made it from LA to LAughlin in 3 hours 17 minutes.
23:19:16 <SWPadnos> Pittsburgh PA to Burlington VT in 7 hours
23:19:24 <jmkasunich> wow
23:19:32 <SWPadnos> in a minivan
23:19:50 <jmkasunich> grew up near Pitts... when you start at the west end, PA is a _wide_ state
23:19:59 <SWPadnos> that it is.
23:20:24 <jmkasunich> even wider when you start in ohio ;-)
23:20:30 <SWPadnos> hold on - I may have been remembering wrong - that could have been State College to Burlington
23:20:39 <SWPadnos> (it was so many years ago :) )
23:21:15 <joe2000chevy> ok i need to fix my linear scale right now it is .32" on screen instead of 1" movement on machine
23:21:32 <jmkasunich> joe2000chevy: steppers or servos?
23:21:40 <joe2000chevy> steppers
23:21:47 <jmkasunich> leadscrew pitch?
23:21:58 <joe2000chevy> 13 turns per inch
23:22:08 <joe2000chevy> 1/2" threaded rod
23:22:19 <jmkasunich> direct drive, or belts and pulleys, gears, etc?
23:22:21 <joe2000chevy> in mach1 i use 20800
23:22:36 <jmkasunich> ok, did you try that with EMC?
23:23:22 <joe2000chevy> i tried to change the 1000 but there are three places where it is 1000 input  and output and also P=1000
23:23:44 <jmkasunich> leave P=1000 alone
23:23:54 <joe2000chevy> ok
23:23:56 <jmkasunich> you are looking for "input scale" and "output scale"
23:24:17 <jmkasunich> actually with steppers you should only need to change one, but I don't remember which one, just change them both
23:24:31 <joe2000chevy> ok i will try it now. brb
23:27:14 <jmkasunich> any suggestions for a small, fast spindle for a light duty mill/engraver?
23:27:31 <joe2000chevy> still shows the same.... i" on machine and 0.33 in program?
23:28:06 <joe2000chevy> thats the meric conversion number? .32808
23:28:19 <jmkasunich> I don't think so
23:28:29 <joe2000chevy> .3208
23:28:30 <jmkasunich> which axis did you change?
23:28:33 <joe2000chevy> all
23:28:53 <joe2000chevy> 0, 1 amd 2
23:28:56 <joe2000chevy> and
23:29:13 <les> les has joined #emc
23:29:20 <paul_c> what icon, and which ini are you editing ?
23:29:50 <joe2000chevy> emc.ini
23:29:56 <joe2000chevy> no icon?
23:30:09 <SWPadnos> how do you actually run EMC?
23:30:12 <jmkasunich> how are you starting emc?  icon or command line?
23:30:25 <joe2000chevy> desktop
23:30:42 <joe2000chevy> icon
23:30:55 <paul_c> which version of the BDI did you install ?
23:31:12 <jmkasunich> ok... that icon uses a specific ini file... not neccessarily the one you edited
23:31:13 <joe2000chevy> the latest one, i think
23:31:32 <paul_c> BDI-4.18 ?
23:31:46 <joe2000chevy> how do i find out the version on that machine?
23:31:57 <joe2000chevy> i just downloaded it a week ago
23:32:16 <joe2000chevy> forgive me I'm new to Linux also.
23:32:20 <jmkasunich> do you know how to open a shell prompt (command line)?
23:32:37 <paul_c> Is there an icon on the desktop £Instructions" ?
23:32:39 <les> isn't generic.ini default?
23:32:40 <joe2000chevy> icon yes
23:33:01 <paul_c> Two icons for Sherline ?
23:33:25 <joe2000chevy> yes
23:33:57 <paul_c> OK.. Use the K menu ->EMC->generic
23:34:17 <paul_c> and edit /usr/local/emc/generic.ini
23:34:31 <joe2000chevy> ok
23:34:32 <joe2000chevy> brb
23:34:54 <SWPadnos> Looks like there should be some indication of the BDI version in an easy to find location :)
23:34:56 <jmkasunich> I hate icons
23:34:59 <paul_c> The two Sherline icons are for Sherline mills and linked to the two sherline ini files.
23:35:05 <SWPadnos> (like a file in /etc, called BDIVersion
23:35:07 <SWPadnos> )
23:35:24 <jmkasunich> uname -a
23:35:33 <jmkasunich> if you can get them to open a shell
23:35:41 <SWPadnos> nope
23:35:53 <SWPadnos> that shows kernel version and other stuff, but not BDI version
23:36:00 <jmkasunich> doesn't spell out what BDI it is
23:36:03 <paul_c> CD->RELEASE.NOTES
23:36:10 <jmkasunich> but paul can figure it out from uname
23:36:22 <SWPadnos> is RELEASE_NOTES installed to CD?
23:36:29 <paul_c> BDI-4.18 onwards will have the update log in it.
23:36:33 <SWPadnos> jmkasunich: true
23:36:45 <SWPadnos> OK.  that should solve some support issues :)
23:37:05 <paul_c> RELEASE.NOTES will be on the CD that was used for the install.
23:37:23 <Imperator_> Imperator_ has quit
23:37:31 <joe2000chevy> is the input scale number supose to be so far away or so many spaces in it?
23:37:45 <SWPadnos> right - but that won't always be available - copying that file to the HD during install wouldn't hurt
23:38:05 <jmkasunich> joe2000chevy: you mean it is far to the right, but on the same line as the name?
23:38:54 <jmkasunich> there shouldn't be any spaces _inside_ the number
23:39:10 <jmkasunich> but you can have any amount of space between the name and number, as long as they're on the same line
23:40:37 <joe2000chevy> yes same line.....
23:40:50 <joe2000chevy> ok in generic it moves .25 in program
23:41:01 <jmkasunich> and 1" on machine?
23:41:35 <joe2000chevy> yes
23:41:44 <jmkasunich> change scale to 5200
23:41:49 <joe2000chevy> and axis is backwards :(
23:42:12 <joe2000chevy> can i just use the sherline one?
23:42:16 <jmkasunich> I _think_ you could change both input scale and output scale to -5200 to fix that but I'm not sure
23:42:22 <jmkasunich> no, use generic
23:42:34 <joe2000chevy> the generic looks plain... lol
23:43:05 <joe2000chevy> -5200 or 5200?
23:43:24 <jmkasunich> either one should fix your 1" = 0.25" problem
23:43:31 <jmkasunich> I think the minus will reverse the axis
23:45:14 <joe2000chevy> yup that did it for the inches, GREAT :)
23:45:32 <joe2000chevy> i just need the revesal now
23:45:49 <jmkasunich> minus 5200 didn't fix that?
23:45:51 <joe2000chevy> for Y and Z
23:46:06 <joe2000chevy> i will try that, both input and output?
23:46:10 <jmkasunich> yes
23:46:45 <joe2000chevy> and 0,1 or 2? 0=x? 1=y? 2=z?
23:46:54 <jmkasunich> you got it
23:46:59 <joe2000chevy> kewl
23:48:50 <joe2000chevy> ok that worked.... its just right now....
23:48:56 <jmkasunich> cool
23:49:19 <joe2000chevy> how can i use the nice interface sherline uses?
23:49:42 <jmkasunich> dunno... I'm not the user interface expert
23:50:05 <jmkasunich> if Ray was still here he could tell you 
23:50:23 <joe2000chevy> ok
23:50:53 <jmkasunich> paul_c might know too.....
23:52:10 <jmkasunich> near the top of the ini file is a section called [DISPLAY], inside it there are probably several lines like "DISPLAY = tkemc", etc... all but one will have either a # or ; in front
23:52:13 <joe2000chevy> he should be in bed now.
23:52:33 <jmkasunich> is there one that says "DISPLAY = mini"?
23:52:37 <joe2000chevy> im in texas
23:53:15 <paul_c> mini is the Sherline GUI
23:53:35 <paul_c> just replace tkemc with mini and go.
23:53:36 <joe2000chevy> can it be used instead of generic?
23:53:57 <jmkasunich> right - can he do "DISPLAY = mini" in his generic.ini file to use the sherline GUI with a non-sherline machine?
23:53:58 <joe2000chevy> how?
23:55:00 <paul_c> Or do you mean "Use the Sherline desktop icons" with generic.ini ?
23:55:06 <jmkasunich> you still want to use the generic icon I think... that has your machine config in it... if you change the line that says "DISPLAY = tkemc" to "DISPLAY = mini" I think it will let you use the sherline display
23:55:54 <joe2000chevy> ok i will try it now :)
23:56:30 <joe2000chevy> it already has tkemc
23:56:53 <SWPadnos> whoami
23:57:01 <SWPadnos> don't answer that
23:57:24 <paul_c> * paul_c would answer, but....
23:57:37 <joe2000chevy> yup mini worked
23:58:57 <SWPadnos> (keyboard focus problem)
23:59:11 <SWPadnos> it is cool to have an EMC terminal on my sindows machine, though
23:59:23 <SWPadnos> hmmm - Sindows - I like it
23:59:45 <Jymmm> swindows!