00:02:05 <gezr> howdy
00:02:41 <jmkasunich> hi
00:02:59 <gezr> I added a new photo of the almost finished blasted parts
00:03:12 <gezr> http://masternode.net/gallery
00:04:55 <jmkasunich> never saw your shop photos before
00:05:00 <jmkasunich> you got a shaper! cool!
00:05:52 <jmkasunich> when I was just getting into metalworking I passed up an opportunity to buy a South Bend 7" shaper for $250
00:05:59 <jmkasunich> been kicking myself ever since
00:06:43 <gezr> yeah, I took those today
00:06:50 <gezr> and did some blasting earlier
00:06:53 <gezr> I love the shaper
00:07:30 <gezr> I should make a short little video of it running some time
00:08:00 <jmkasunich> what kind of mill is that?  Benchmaster or something?
00:08:01 <gezr> I need to make a good set of guards for it, it can toss out chips across the garrage 
00:08:17 <gezr> atlas horizontal
00:08:29 <jmkasunich> nice
00:08:39 <jmkasunich> is the lathe an atlas too?
00:08:43 <gezr> yeah
00:08:44 <gezr> haha
00:08:47 <gezr> all atlas
00:09:23 <gezr> ebayers who get what seem to be good machines then they part them out make me sick at times
00:09:34 <jmkasunich> I don't think there were many companies that made lathes, mills, and shapers all with the same name
00:09:39 <gezr> I just wish I could find a good deal on a 1" arbor shaft
00:09:47 <jmkasunich> SB made lathes and shapers, but no mills that I'm aware of
00:09:54 <gezr> sb has a mill
00:10:03 <jmkasunich> what is the spindle taper on your mill?
00:10:06 <gezr> its larger though
00:10:09 <gezr> its mt2
00:10:50 <jmkasunich> what about the lathe spindle taper?
00:10:53 <gezr> I dont hardly ever use my machines
00:11:08 <gezr> I think the lathe is mt2 as well, im not sure off the top of my head
00:11:45 <jmkasunich> you could probably make a 1
00:11:48 <jmkasunich> a 1" arbor
00:11:51 <gezr> I have a complete sb 9" over here as well that im rebuilding, I need to make my gear stuff,
00:11:56 <gezr> yeah I have one in the process
00:13:37 <gezr> I dont use my machines enough
00:16:15 <gezr> I have the vertical atatchement for the mill, but I dont have the running gear for it, its a loop pully system
00:46:11 <A-L-P-H-A> do you guys ever do mockups for parts?  Or do you guys just strait to metal?
00:46:58 <A-L-P-H-A> go
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00:47:21 <A-L-P-H-A> hi
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01:30:22 <A-L-P-H-A> anyone got tips on cutting acrylic sheets [like holes].  I know how to score and snap them to the proper sizes already.  A Manual break is awesome for taht.
01:30:25 <A-L-P-H-A> break = sheet metal bender.
01:44:12 <cradek> brake
01:44:32 <cradek> I just drill acrylic
01:45:05 <cradek> or, use a 1/16" mill at 800rpm/3ipm and it won't melt
01:45:36 <cradek> the only problem is how easily it melts
01:48:24 <A-L-P-H-A> 1/16 at 800rpm, 3IPM? that's it?
01:55:34 <gezr> thats that stuff that will crack quickly hu?
01:55:35 <cradek> that's what I had to do to keep it from melting
01:55:44 <cradek> this was .1" thick
01:56:00 <cradek> gezr: yeah if you drill it too fast it will shatter
01:56:10 <cradek> but the real problem with the end mill is melting
01:56:41 <gezr> ah
01:56:49 <cradek> it's so cheap I like to cut prototypes from it instead of metal
01:57:22 <cradek> gezr: it melts into a big ball on the mill, then you hit estop, and it instantly hardens and then you break the mill trying to get it off!
01:57:59 <gezr> yeah, ive never ran that hard stuff ive ran plastics though
01:58:17 <cradek> nylon works much better but is expensive
01:59:04 <gezr> ive ran that stuff by the truck load
01:59:39 <gezr> at times I really miss the place I used to work at
02:00:00 <gezr> this new place doesnt give me any freedom, but then again I dont have any wories
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02:00:39 <gezr> A-L-P-H-A : did you see the photos I put up?
02:00:45 <gezr> excuse me. ill brb
02:03:50 <A-L-P-H-A> gezr. nope... mind posting the link again?
02:04:14 <A-L-P-H-A> checking
02:04:20 <gezr> its onoly up a bit, im back
02:06:21 <A-L-P-H-A> I saw the shop. :)
02:06:35 <A-L-P-H-A> is that indoors? or the garage?
02:06:38 <gezr> ill have to take more photos morrow
02:06:40 <gezr> garage
02:07:09 <gezr> and just one wall
02:07:39 <A-L-P-H-A> :)
02:07:49 <A-L-P-H-A> I need to clean up my shop... it's such a mess...
02:07:53 <gezr> I only have stuff on one wall :)
02:07:59 <A-L-P-H-A> heh
02:09:27 <A-L-P-H-A> maybe I'll do that now... as I need the shop space.  I also need to make some shelving under my bench.  I could use so much more space there.
02:10:12 <A-L-P-H-A> gezr... so are you thinking of CNC'n all that? some of it?
02:10:27 <gezr> na, I like manual stuff :)
02:10:47 <A-L-P-H-A> I'm way to impatient to make stuff manually...
02:13:03 <gezr> I dont do much
02:13:33 <A-L-P-H-A> neither do I...
02:13:35 <gezr> I have moments like the checkered plate thats on the mill, that was a moment, a chess board for my brother, I have yet to make the pieces for it
02:14:01 <A-L-P-H-A> see... chess peices would be easy if you had a CNC mill. :)
02:14:16 <A-L-P-H-A> hmm... actually... that's an idea... Alumnium + acrylic board. :)
02:14:41 <A-L-P-H-A> and aluminium + acryllic pieces.
02:14:58 <gezr> that would be neat
02:14:59 <A-L-P-H-A> tongue and groove the aluminium and acrylic board.
02:15:15 <cradek> brass and aluminum
02:15:24 <cradek> the acrylic would get scraped up too quickly
02:15:33 <A-L-P-H-A> I could get all the aluminium black anodized...
02:15:41 <A-L-P-H-A> acrylic is pretty durable.
02:16:07 <A-L-P-H-A> or even acetate instead of acrylic
02:16:26 <cradek> you could always polish it I guess
02:16:47 <A-L-P-H-A> it's not like you're banging the pieces together.
02:16:55 <A-L-P-H-A> it'd be a showpeice on the table in the living room.
02:16:56 <A-L-P-H-A> :)
02:17:22 <cradek> a chess board that's not for playing chess??
02:18:20 <A-L-P-H-A> felt the bottom of the pieces.
02:19:29 <cradek> that's the ticket
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02:57:08 <A-L-P-H-A> clean up time.
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04:23:22 <jmkasunich> night all
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04:48:00 <A-L-P-H-A> finally got all the chips off the benchtop... and now I gotta clean the floor around the bench.  this is taking forever.
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13:18:12 <anonimasu> hello
13:18:17 <picnet> hi
13:19:00 <picnet> replaced the zaxis on the 1st cnc i made 2 years ago, kinda helps now having more machines around to make parts.
13:19:26 <robin_s> robin_s has quit
13:19:50 <anonimasu> :)
13:20:08 <anonimasu> I am trying to find the rtai patch for 2.4.21-adeos
13:21:02 <anonimasu> err adeos-r16
13:21:35 <picnet> no idea.
13:24:30 <anonimasu> :)
13:24:52 <anonimasu> but well, atleast I'll have a dev box for both emc2 and emc1..
13:29:09 <anonimasu> err adeos rl6.. found it :)
13:29:19 <anonimasu> just read error on my behalf
13:30:08 <picnet> bbl
13:48:43 <anonimasu> ok
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14:54:56 <cradek> hi all
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14:55:21 <jmkasunich> hi
14:55:38 <cradek> jmkasunich: are you getting hit by the weather over there?
14:55:54 <jmkasunich> got hit - seems to have ended now
14:56:02 <jmkasunich> got about 10" or so
14:56:10 <cradek> guess you'll have to stay home and play with your machines for a while
14:57:04 <jmkasunich> my goal for today is to slightly de-crapify the basement
14:57:40 <cradek> I've been doing that too - it's a pain but sure nice when it's done.
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14:58:12 <jmkasunich> I snagged two tall 19" rack cabinets from work, want to get them inside and store stuff in them
14:58:17 <alex_joni> greetings
14:58:23 <jmkasunich> hi alex
14:58:29 <alex_joni> what's up?
15:00:32 <jmkasunich> sorting thru junk
15:00:46 <alex_joni> cool
15:01:02 <alex_joni> I started my rtai.. think I'll start coding a little
15:01:15 <Imperator_> Hi all
15:01:28 <alex_joni> hey Martin...
15:01:31 <alex_joni> long time no see
15:01:45 <Imperator_> Hi ALex
15:02:03 <Imperator_> yes, have a lot to do at the moment
15:02:22 <Imperator_> hu, could outside
15:02:34 <Imperator_> I was out with the bike
15:02:41 <alex_joni> it's pretty worm here (+2 C)
15:03:01 <Imperator_> hm, here we have something around zero
15:05:00 <alex_joni> jmk: got a lot of snow?
15:05:35 <Imperator_> nice !!
15:06:31 <jmkasunich> about 300mm
15:06:39 <Imperator_> Hi John
15:06:52 <jmkasunich> temp around -12C
15:06:57 <Imperator_> thats nice to ride the bike in the snow :-)
15:07:00 <alex_joni> brrr
15:07:02 <jmkasunich> Hi Martin
15:07:05 <Imperator_> grrrr
15:07:08 <jepler> morning guys
15:07:12 <Imperator_> could :-)
15:07:19 <Imperator_> evening
15:07:50 <Imperator_> are there some news ???
15:08:13 <jmkasunich> what kind of news?
15:09:34 <Imperator_> for example about emc fest or so
15:09:39 <alex_joni> hey jepler
15:10:08 <jmkasunich> the fest:  dates are Monday 4/25 thru Thursday 4/28, at NIST near Washington DC
15:10:25 <jmkasunich> space for 12 people, maybe a couple more
15:10:34 <cradek> sounds fun
15:10:36 <Imperator_> nice
15:10:43 <alex_joni> hey cradek
15:10:48 <jmkasunich> I need to put the facts and a tentative agenda somewhere
15:10:52 <jmkasunich> (on the web)
15:10:56 <cradek> hello
15:11:27 <jmkasunich> mark your calenders and make your travel plans
15:11:45 <jmkasunich> "headquarters" hotel is Motel 6 (cheapest in the area, about $60 per night)
15:11:58 <logger_jmk> logger_jmk has quit
15:12:33 <jmkasunich> stupid logger
15:12:49 <alex_joni> lol
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15:13:26 <alex_joni> hmmm. it snows again
15:14:10 <alex_joni> * alex_joni wonders how it must have been to live in a cave...
15:14:54 <jmkasunich> cold, wet, and dark 
15:15:03 <jmkasunich> no internet either :-(
15:15:19 <alex_joni> maybe some mobile-dial-up
15:15:22 <alex_joni> :-)
15:15:33 <alex_joni> definately no broadband
15:15:50 <alex_joni> is an0n around?
15:16:16 <Imperator_> * Imperator_ takes a hot shower to defrost again
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15:17:09 <alex_joni> hi steve
15:17:29 <jmkasunich> morning steve
15:17:32 <SteveStallings> hi alex, looks like jmk is up early 8-)
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15:17:48 <jmkasunich> big ambitions today... trying to clean the basement
15:17:53 <jmkasunich> hi ray
15:18:07 <alex_joni> hello ray
15:18:13 <rayh> Hey.  What's up.
15:18:15 <SteveStallings> big ambitions here to, hope to get out of the driveway...
15:18:22 <alex_joni> steve: finally it's snowing here too
15:18:33 <jmkasunich> what, an inch of snow in virginia?
15:18:35 <rayh> Got a bit of snow, eh?
15:19:20 <rayh> We got about 7 before it started to drift.
15:19:27 <SteveStallings> actually only about 4 inches here, but the temps are low enough to make things like glass and my driveway is 400 feet and my street is now a dead end that does not get plowed
15:20:30 <jmkasunich> ouch
15:20:43 <jmkasunich> you have a snowblower?
15:21:17 <SteveStallings> this IS virginia.... snowblower?????
15:21:22 <jmkasunich> rayh: only 7"? I thought you would have 7 feet by now ;-)
15:21:33 <rayh> Snow and sleet can be much harder to deal with south of where I am.
15:21:50 <jmkasunich> it's too cold to snow up where you are?
15:22:14 <jmkasunich> SteveStallings: how steep is your driveway... around here, we just drive right thru 4"
15:22:20 <rayh> Right.  The drift in the lake yard looks like about 4.5 feet.  More like six beside the driveway.
15:22:28 <rayh> Now it is.
15:22:54 <SteveStallings> Ray, the ISO images a Sherline are still off line and I have a couple of guys asking what to do, are there any mirrors
15:22:57 <rayh> About a 30 degree at the worst.
15:23:03 <cradek> wow, tomorrow will have a high of 53F/12C
15:23:09 <jmkasunich> we've probably had 3 feet plus so far this winter, but in batches, and it's gotten warm enough to melt each batch
15:23:17 <jmkasunich> flooding has been a problem in some areas
15:23:23 <rayh> I'm thinking that the only mirrors are for 4.0x
15:23:26 <jmkasunich> about 12-15" on the ground right now
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15:24:32 <SteveStallings> I sent e-mail to Sherline asking for help, but no response.
15:25:15 <cradek> I got propoganda from Sherline, when I bought something recently, saying a new version of Linux is out, Linux 4.05
15:25:58 <jmkasunich> IOW, they haven't the slightest idea what they are talking about
15:26:11 <cradek> I'm sorry they're not doing their part but are still trying to profit form Paul's work
15:26:30 <cradek> let me go see if I can find it
15:26:32 <jmkasunich> although the Linux version thing can certainly be confusing
15:26:36 <alex_joni_> * alex_joni_ thinks the latest linux is 4.08
15:26:36 <rayh> Oh yea.  They've shipped quite a few machines with 4.05 and a few mods we've made
15:26:41 <alex_joni_> lol
15:26:47 <jmkasunich> that's the latest BDI
15:26:58 <alex_joni_> I know john ;)
15:27:18 <rayh> The home bug is there so folk can't use the zero buttons.
15:27:43 <alex_joni_> rayh: one thing about the latest BDI
15:27:57 <alex_joni_> an0n asked me if he could compile from CVS on BDI4.08
15:28:06 <alex_joni_> either emc1 or emc2
15:28:27 <alex_joni_> but if it's only 2.6-based I reckon neither will compile
15:28:52 <rayh> Uh.  No no compile from current cvs on 2.6
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15:29:49 <alex_joni_> I don't think BDI4.08 is the way to go for a newbie
15:30:00 <cradek> darn, can't find it
15:30:23 <alex_joni_> if something is broken (like the stepping an0n reports)... we can't just say .. checkout from CVS and recompile
15:30:36 <alex_joni_> cradek: what?
15:30:45 <cradek> the thing sherline sent me
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15:30:54 <rayh> cradek:  Paul was compensated a bit for the work that he was doing for them.
15:31:02 <alex_joni_> you wanna install the latest linux? :-)
15:31:37 <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich has to go out in the garage for a bit... I'll be here intermittently
15:32:33 <alex_joni_> ok.. now is the time I wanna hear thoughts about IO-controller
15:32:42 <alex_joni_> what would anyone wish of it...
15:32:52 <alex_joni_> what it should control, how, etc
15:32:59 <alex_joni_> if you have such thoughts ;)
15:33:31 <rayh> Let me propose the most radical case I can think of.  All IO should go through a single controller.
15:33:52 <alex_joni_> rayh: there will be only one controller
15:34:25 <rayh> Limits, homes, probes and all the front panel buttons?
15:34:58 <alex_joni_> nope... that's handled by emcmot
15:35:07 <alex_joni_> limits, homes 
15:35:20 <alex_joni_> don't know about probes
15:35:37 <alex_joni_> front panel buttons=? (lube, coolant, etc.?)
15:35:56 <rayh> That's why I proposed a single path to all IO.
15:36:06 <alex_joni_> you don't have to have one singlke path
15:36:18 <rayh> 'cause I know that some of it goes through other places.
15:36:20 <alex_joni_> because.. you have some rt-stuff (like emcmot)
15:36:29 <alex_joni_> and some non-rt stuff like (coolant)
15:36:47 <alex_joni_> you don't need to clutter up the RT part with lube & such
15:37:15 <rayh> But what if I want to use a limit or a home switch in ladder logic.
15:37:16 <alex_joni_> but I agree they all end up in the same place (and that's HAL)
15:37:33 <alex_joni_> you can access HAL-pins from whereever you want
15:38:15 <rayh> But what if I want the logic of limits to be in my ladder.
15:38:39 <alex_joni_> rayh: can you give me an example where some ladder is usefull?
15:38:56 <alex_joni_> * alex_joni_ knows very little about IO-controllers...
15:39:31 <rayh> In a running EMC1 now, if you hit a limit it turns the machine off.
15:39:43 <alex_joni_> yes...
15:39:52 <rayh> Does not create a e-stop condition.
15:39:56 <alex_joni_> depends on how it's done though
15:40:30 <rayh> To me, that is hard coded, c language based logic.
15:40:41 <alex_joni_> I agree
15:40:54 <alex_joni_> and it's hardcoded in the motion-controller
15:41:06 <rayh> Most new machine controls use a limit to prevent further motion in the direction defined by the limit.
15:41:21 <alex_joni_> the motion-controller then sends the IO-controller a NML-message
15:42:09 <alex_joni_> I think when you hit a hardware limit you should estop
15:42:27 <alex_joni_> if you hit a software limit it should tell you and turn the machine off
15:42:31 <rayh> I'd like to be able to write a bit of ladder that says if x+limit = true --> do this.
15:42:33 <alex_joni_> but not estop
15:42:54 <alex_joni_> rayh: problem is.. where do you want to put that code?
15:43:03 <alex_joni_> I mean.. who'll access it?
15:43:23 <rayh> I want to put that code into a single machine logic location. 
15:43:28 <alex_joni_> and.. if it's code you compile... no good
15:43:33 <rayh> Right in there with all the other machine logic.
15:43:56 <alex_joni_> you mean some kind of control-ini file?
15:44:08 <rayh> Hal has the ability to run multiple threads with more than one timing.
15:44:15 <alex_joni_> yes
15:44:47 <alex_joni_> * alex_joni_ feels where this is going
15:44:56 <alex_joni_> I picture it like this...
15:44:58 <rayh> No reason I can see that the Machine Logic location should not be able to assign priorities (threads) to ladder lines.
15:45:08 <alex_joni_> all EMC-components export HAL-pins
15:45:40 <alex_joni_> a suplimentary logic (a ladder controller) reads the ladder you programmed
15:45:56 <alex_joni_> and based on that it reads the HAL-pins and sets some pins
15:46:08 <alex_joni_> which gets noticed by motion, io, etc
15:46:15 <rayh> Good so far.
15:46:50 <alex_joni_> now, another aspect...
15:46:59 <alex_joni_> if I want to add a custom button to the GUI
15:47:06 <rayh> Where I fail to agree with the history of emc is my belief that limits are not motion.
15:47:23 <alex_joni_> hardware limits are definately motion
15:47:32 <alex_joni_> hardcoded
15:47:41 <alex_joni_> software limits.. not so sure
15:47:43 <rayh> They may well run at the speed of motion but they are not inherently motion.  They are io.
15:47:56 <alex_joni_> I disagree
15:48:10 <rayh> Right I expected that you would.
15:48:21 <alex_joni_> it is a safety stuff related to motion
15:48:26 <alex_joni_> and to nothing else
15:48:35 <rayh> In my part of the world we call it "baiting the hook."
15:48:41 <alex_joni_> how about stepping?
15:48:48 <alex_joni_> is that also IO?
15:49:00 <rayh> No it is motion.
15:49:05 <alex_joni_> how so?
15:49:36 <rayh> Because of what it does when it gets into the world.
15:50:14 <alex_joni_> hmm.. I'm still not convinced that hardware limits are IO
15:50:41 <alex_joni_> on the robots I program, hardware limits are used to power-off the servos
15:50:45 <rayh> Right.  I don't expect the developers to just agree with me.
15:50:48 <alex_joni_> as the first thing they do
15:51:01 <rayh> I can understand that.
15:51:04 <alex_joni_> after that they get noticed by the controller
15:51:14 <alex_joni_> which tells the user what happened
15:51:27 <rayh> But you want to be able to control what motion each limit affects.
15:51:30 <alex_joni_> and once you reached a hardware switch ... you can't do anything about it
15:51:45 <alex_joni_> you need to push the axis manually off the limit
15:52:00 <rayh> No problem there.
15:52:14 <rayh> Unless the machine is unattended.
15:52:16 <alex_joni_> during normal running however, you cannot reach a hardware limit
15:52:26 <alex_joni_> never
15:52:29 <rayh> No problem there either.
15:52:37 <alex_joni_> because of the software limits
15:52:52 <rayh> and because of good programming practice.
15:53:02 <alex_joni_> the only case you reach a hardware limit is when something is wrong with the machine
15:53:16 <alex_joni_> doesn't have to do anything with programming
15:53:47 <alex_joni_> if you move the axis towards the end, and the software limit is reached that's it.. it stops
15:53:47 <rayh> But I still insist that I should be able to affect the logic of a limit in a single machine configuration location.
15:54:07 <rayh> Nope.
15:54:13 <alex_joni_> why?
15:54:36 <alex_joni_> I can move back, but I cannot move forward
15:54:51 <alex_joni_> that's how the software limit is defined
15:55:06 <rayh> I've got a bridge mazak that has limits.
15:55:19 <alex_joni_> the maximum I can travel safely on that axis...
15:55:24 <alex_joni_> * alex_joni_ is listening
15:55:31 <rayh> But to change a tool it has to reach beyond one limit.
15:55:42 <alex_joni_> software or hardware?
15:55:47 <rayh> In order to do that it has to have a door open.
15:56:15 <rayh> We don't want to crash into that door while machining.\
15:56:32 <rayh> So we put a hard limit there to prevent y axis motion.
15:56:53 <alex_joni_> if you still go beyond that limit it's not a hard-limit
15:57:03 <alex_joni_> at least not according to my beliefs
15:57:05 <alex_joni_> ;)
15:57:10 <rayh> Then we ignore that limit when whe have the door open and want to move into the tool carousel.
15:57:39 <alex_joni_> you actually bypass the switch with the door... right?
15:57:41 <rayh> Right I accept your beliefs and will encourage you to program your machine to match those beliefs.
15:58:04 <alex_joni_> rayh: I don't mean to program my machine :)
15:58:09 <rayh> What I wish to allow is for me to also program my machine to my beliefs.
15:58:20 <alex_joni_> that's why I started this conversation
15:58:22 <rayh> Ah.  Any machine logic is a program.
15:58:46 <alex_joni_> now you gave me a point I can accept, so as to enlarge my belief :-)
15:58:53 <rayh> Why should I have to recompile EMC to change how my machine works.
15:59:03 <alex_joni_> of course you shouldn't
15:59:11 <alex_joni_> I agree there
15:59:16 <alex_joni_> but.. another thing...
15:59:20 <rayh> To my mind, ladder logic is programming.
15:59:32 <alex_joni_> if I want to control a plasma
15:59:42 <alex_joni_> I still have a lot to recompile
15:59:52 <rayh> That hard coded action of a limit is programming
16:00:11 <rayh> Right on.  Plasma is a perfect example.
16:00:13 <alex_joni_> because... I can't add the NML-signals I want to send without recompiling the whole emc
16:39:58 <logger_aj> logger_aj has joined #emc
16:39:58 <benford.freenode.net> topic is: Welcome to the Enhanced Machine Control forum | Regular Developer's meetings every Sunday between 14:00 & 18:00 GMT
16:39:58 <benford.freenode.net> Users on #emc: logger_aj dave-e jmkasunich logger_jmk CIA-9 picnet alex_joni_ rayh SteveStallings acemi Imperator_ pemmet asdfqwega @ChanServ zwisk jepler learath anonimasu @pc_op danfalck cradek A-L-P-H-A ccjoe 
16:40:00 <jmkasunich> waitaminit rayh... you said "run
16:40:04 <rayh> That one might be.
16:40:04 <jmkasunich> "run" again
16:40:21 <jmkasunich> what do you mean by "run" as opposed to "rung"
16:40:42 <dave-e> run processes rungs..right
16:41:06 <dave-e> sequentially
16:41:18 <jmkasunich> so a run is a group of rungs that are all evaluated at the same rate and sequentually?
16:41:30 <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich has little experience with PLCs, and doesn't know the lingo
16:41:47 <rayh> Yes.  I'm not certain I meant run at all.  Focus on little bits of the logic.  Each bit is a rung.
16:42:00 <dave-e> a run does the whole ladder???
16:42:20 <rayh> That would be true I think, dave.
16:42:23 <jmkasunich> right - rung is well defined, I think... one coil or other output, and one or more contacts controlling it
16:42:41 <jmkasunich> I was thinking of a collection of rungs that executes sequentially as a ladder
16:42:59 <jmkasunich> and you could have more than one ladder, one running every 0.1sec, one running every 0.001sec, etc
16:43:11 <rayh> So my thought is that any logic should be approachable through the same process.  If it's a classicladder or a schematic.
16:43:30 <jmkasunich> ladders are better than schematic for logic
16:43:46 <rayh> I would say that they should be the same ladder but different rungs or routines can run at different rates.
16:43:48 <jmkasunich> schematics are better than ladders for general interconnect (analog signals, stepgens, etc)
16:43:51 <SteveStallings> HAL could support multiple ladders, just as a machine could have multiple PLCs. Each implementer could choose ladder or C-code to implement the HAL component to run his tool changer or whatever
16:44:07 <jmkasunich> right Steve...
16:44:47 <jmkasunich> although if I was doing a HAL implementation of ladders, each ladder would be it's own component... and all rungs within a single ladder/component would be evaluated at the same rate
16:45:08 <dave-e> makes sense
16:45:11 <SteveStallings> yes
16:45:28 <rayh> The only problem with that would be getting various parts out of sequence.
16:45:42 <jmkasunich> what do you mean out of sequence?
16:45:53 <rayh> A traditional PLC runs with known relationships between all parts of the program.
16:46:15 <jmkasunich> you mean making sure the rungs processing limits run before the motion controller that uses those inputs?
16:46:23 <jmkasunich> and similar issues?
16:46:33 <rayh> Right.  That is the central idea.
16:46:39 <jmkasunich> gotcha
16:46:48 <jmkasunich> HAL deals with that using threads and functions
16:46:58 <rayh> A PLC reads all inputs, computes the next relationships, and the writes all the outputs.
16:47:12 <jmkasunich> right - I would implemnt that as a single HAL function
16:48:06 <jmkasunich> the HAL thread would execute driver input functions, then one PLC function that processes inputs, then the motion function and some other stuff, then perhaps another PLC function that processes outputs, and finally the driver output functions
16:48:37 <jmkasunich> I'm starting to see the fundamental difference between Ray's vision and mind
16:48:39 <jmkasunich> mine
16:48:58 <jmkasunich> Ray is wrapping HAL and motion and stepgen and the rest in the PLC metaphore
16:49:07 <alex_joni_> yup
16:49:09 <jmkasunich> I'm wrapping the PLC in the HAL metaphore
16:49:15 <alex_joni_> and we thought of the opposite
16:49:21 <jmkasunich> yep
16:50:22 <jmkasunich> I must admit the PLC metaphore does a better job of handling scheduling of execution - everybody know rungs run from top to bottom
16:50:25 <alex_joni_> but I think they both would work
16:50:39 <jmkasunich> but I think the HAL metaphore does a better job of handling interconnect
16:51:18 <alex_joni_> if you bring hal into the PLC,  you need a lot of code to interconnect stuff
16:51:36 <alex_joni_> if you bring the PLCS into HAL, you only need to export pins/params
16:51:42 <jmkasunich> this is starting to look amazingly like an Automax 
16:51:44 <alex_joni_> using the HAL-api
16:51:53 <alex_joni_> what's an automax?
16:52:05 <SteveStallings> I thought there was no precedence of rungs in a ladder, thought it acts like a state machine, evaluate all, output all....
16:52:15 <jmkasunich> Automax is a late 80's PLC system from Reliance electric
16:52:35 <rayh> * rayh got a phone call from grandkid in Germany.  Will keep watching
16:52:38 <jmkasunich> Steve - rungs are evaluated from top to bottom, to avoid race conditions
16:53:40 <alex_joni_> jmk: what if you have only one ladder inside hal
16:54:00 <jmkasunich> I think folks are gonna want more
16:54:08 <jmkasunich> let me give you the quick intro to Automax
16:54:11 <alex_joni_> and that ladder has more rungs inside...
16:54:47 <jmkasunich> huh?
16:55:25 <jmkasunich> most ladders have more than one rung, some have hundreds
16:56:27 <jepler> I just read this on "DIY-CNC": Second, Power (Watts) equals (RPM times in-oz) / 1351. That makes it 15 RPM times 370 in-oz or 5,550. Divide that by 1351 and you get 4.1 Watts.  
16:56:52 <jepler> Why would this equation be true of any (stepper) motor?
16:57:03 <jmkasunich> I think it's true of any motor, period
16:57:23 <alex_joni_> anybody heard of gEDA?
16:57:25 <jepler> I don't understand why
16:57:47 <jmkasunich> I know the same equation as "power(HP) =  torque(ftbs) * speed(RPM) / 5252
16:58:13 <alex_joni_> seems gEDA is a GPL suite for design
16:58:30 <jmkasunich> s/ftbs/ft-lbs/
16:58:32 <SteveStallings> Power (as in mechanical power delivered to the load) equals force through distance. The magic constants result from the required units conversions.
16:58:32 <alex_joni_> it contains gschem (schematic editor)
16:58:39 <alex_joni_> http://www.geda.seul.org/screenshots/index.html
16:58:59 <jmkasunich> yes alex, I downloaded and compiled it a while back, but never got time to dig deeper
16:59:14 <jmkasunich> that was my leading candidate for a HAL schematic capture front end
16:59:29 <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> A-L-P-H-A_laptop has joined #emc
16:59:53 <alex_joni_> * alex_joni_ look sinto that
17:00:07 <alex_joni_> * alex_joni_ looks into that
17:00:19 <alex_joni_> darn.. I haven't used this keyboard in a while...
17:00:47 <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> good afternoon people.
17:00:49 <jmkasunich> jepler: power = torque * speed, the different constants are because of the different units for power, speed, and torque
17:00:59 <Mer> Mer has joined #EMC
17:01:26 <jmkasunich> I trust the HP/ft-lbs/5252 version, I would have to run the math for the watts/oz-in/1351 version
17:01:34 <jepler> hm, OK, I can get the given number out of units(1):  $ units "2 pi oz in gravity / minute" "watt"
17:02:09 <jmkasunich> 1 ft-lb = 12 * 16 oz-in
17:02:15 <jmkasunich> 1 HP = 746 watts
17:03:02 <jmkasunich> the 1351 checks out: 5252 * (12*16) / 746 = 1351
17:04:00 <jmkasunich> got the log, thanks Steve
17:04:58 <jmkasunich> seems the PLC/HAL discussion has quieted down...
17:05:09 <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> does anyone happen to know how to remove grub/lilo like programs off a HD?
17:05:23 <jmkasunich> erase the MBR?
17:05:58 <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> jmkasunich, how do you do that within DOS?
17:06:01 <alex_joni_> boot a doze bootdisk
17:06:04 <jepler> A-L-P-H-A_laptop: You "remove" one bootloader by installing another one instead
17:06:12 <alex_joni_> and run fdisk /mbr
17:06:19 <alex_joni_> it'll clear out the mbr
17:06:19 <jepler> "FDISK/MBR" was the incantation with DOS, to install the default DOS master boot record
17:06:23 <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> alex_joni_, thanks.  I'll it out.
17:06:33 <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> try
17:06:52 <alex_joni_> ;)
17:06:56 <Mer> Mer has quit
17:06:59 <jmkasunich> ok, some background info... AutoMax
17:07:00 <alex_joni_> jepler : you need a space in there 
17:07:10 <jmkasunich> a PLC from the late 80s
17:07:18 <jmkasunich> you could define any number of tasks
17:07:28 <jmkasunich> each task was either ladder, block, or basic
17:07:47 <jmkasunich> all IO points (analog, digital, whatever) were global, and had user defined names
17:08:13 <jmkasunich> so the third input on a DIO card would not be DIO:3, it could be called "limit_switch_in"
17:08:27 <jepler> alex_joni_: You sure?  
17:08:34 <jmkasunich> _any_ task, whether ladder, block, or basic, could access any IO point
17:08:47 <alex_joni_> * alex_joni_ thinks of an hal-alis command ;)
17:08:57 <jmkasunich> you could also define internal named variables, that were accessed just like IO points
17:09:12 <jmkasunich> ladders were ladders, obviously, and mostly handled digital logic
17:09:17 <alex_joni_> jepler: "FDISK/MBR -> FDISK /MBR"
17:09:25 <dave-e> good discussion here....I'm going to go to the shop but log. 
17:09:44 <jmkasunich> block tasks were collections of functional blocks, like PID, etc... analogous to HAL stepgen and such
17:09:51 <jepler> alex_joni_: in COMMAND.COM you never needed the space, because options always started with space
17:09:58 <jmkasunich> and basic tasks were just that - programs written in basic
17:10:32 <jmkasunich> each task had a priority and a execution rate
17:11:35 <alex_joni_> jepler: might be ;) but I don't think a newer command.com still allows you that
17:12:13 <jmkasunich> if you guys are gonna argue about DOS syntax I'm going back outside
17:12:16 <jmkasunich> ;-)
17:12:16 <jepler> alex_joni_: Bah, who is using anything newer than DOS 6.22?
17:12:44 <jepler> "dir/od" works as expected in my XP's CMD.EXE actually
17:12:56 <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich will be back later
17:13:01 <jepler> jmkasunich: bye
17:13:14 <alex_joni_> not gonna rgue about dos anymore
17:13:38 <alex_joni_> we all agree that it sux... ;)
17:14:01 <jmkasunich> I liked DOS better than windows
17:14:09 <jmkasunich> but I really do have to get outside...
17:14:40 <jmkasunich> I'll be back once I get a rack in the basement
17:16:03 <SteveStallings> jepler - just in case you overlooked it, stepper motor specs are usually stated as holding torque. Putting that number into a power calculation is not valid. You need the torque from a torque vs. speed curver at the desired speed in order to compute watts.
17:16:37 <dave-e> dave-e has quit
17:17:44 <jepler> SteveStallings: yeah, I have some experience with that, I had just never thought that there was a simple numeric conversion from rpm oz-in to watts...
17:22:01 <alex_joni_> I kinda like this: the make process downloads the missing sources from some ftp
17:22:05 <alex_joni_> ;)
17:22:15 <alex_joni_> * alex_joni_ is talking about gEDA
17:24:30 <alex_joni_> the installer would be nice to add to emc2 too
17:30:59 <jmkasunich> it's really annoying when 98% of the fasteners in a piece of equipment are in inches, and the last 2% are metric (or vice-versa)
17:31:09 <alex_joni_> yeah...
17:31:12 <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich is making too many trips in and out for tools
17:31:21 <alex_joni_> jmk: what did you think of the installer for gEDA?
17:31:44 <jmkasunich> it's been months (maybe a year), I don't remember it
17:31:57 <jmkasunich> going out in the cold again
17:32:07 <alex_joni_> it's very nice now...
17:32:23 <alex_joni_> I'd recomend people to check it out... it would be a nice feature for emc2
17:46:21 <rayh> * rayh is away: I'm busy
17:51:12 <SteveStallings> steve is away - shoveling snow
17:57:58 <alex_joni_> jmk: what hal_ def should I use for double?
17:58:26 <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> wish it was warmer outside... [like not snowing, sunny, +18 oC...] so I could play with my mig welder.. kinda want to just weld something...
17:58:28 <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> strange urge.
17:59:07 <alex_joni_> alpha: did the fdisk stuff work?
17:59:16 <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> to be honest, I haven't gotten out of bed.
17:59:42 <gezr> gezr has joined #emc
17:59:50 <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> hi gezr
18:00:14 <alex_joni_> hello gezr
18:00:24 <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> alex_joni_ I'll try it after I make some bacon and eggs...
18:00:50 <alex_joni_> bare in mind that you can't access you rlinux partitions after that
18:01:02 <alex_joni_> and with the dos fdisk you can't delete them aswell
18:02:41 <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> I just want the drive to be like a fresh one, so I can install whatever I wish afterwards.
18:03:13 <alex_joni_> I suggest booting into linux, and deleting the partitions first
18:03:47 <alex_joni_> using linux fdisk
18:03:49 <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> 'ight.. I'll load up knoppix
18:03:49 <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> and kill everything on that drive then.
18:03:50 <picnet> picnet has quit
18:03:54 <alex_joni_> * alex_joni_ did this once and it works (to delete all partitions from a running linux)
18:07:59 <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> I don't think it has any partitions left that Dos can delete... my father decided to try it on his own on an old HD of mine...
18:09:44 <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> what are people's EMC boxes like?  I'd like to be able to have a DOS bootup, and RTLinux for EMC or EMC2 [to learn].  Would this be hard to do?
18:09:58 <alex_joni_> I'd go with rtai
18:10:23 <alex_joni_> as for the box, an 133-200 MHz should do it
18:10:38 <alex_joni_> but you'll compile a few days on it (kernel, rtai, etc)
18:10:45 <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> I have a 1.3gHz athalon... or was it the 700. or 900?  I forget now
18:10:56 <alex_joni_> that's more than enough
18:11:04 <alex_joni_> I have a 1.4 G athlon
18:11:06 <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> yeah, I'd hope so.
18:11:11 <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> Time: 13:11:07 -0500 GMT, Windows XP Professional, Service Pack 2 (5.1 - 2600), AMD XP 2800+ running at (1-Intel Pentium 4, 1993MHz, 512KB (0% Load)), DDR400 RAM Usage: 153/256MB (59.77%), C: 9.13gb of 19.53gb free, D: 0gb of 0gb free, E: 17.38gb of 17.73gb free, Current Uptime: 1day 17hrs 23mins 18secs, Record Uptime: 2wks 3days 8hrs 23mins 1sec, 3 Samsung 19" flat monitors (1 Trinitron, 2 CRT).
18:11:15 <alex_joni_> and a 300MHz SBC
18:11:17 <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> oops. that lies.
18:11:54 <Mer> Mer has joined #EMC
18:12:05 <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> Time: 13:11:59 -0500 GMT, Windows XP Professional, Service Pack 2 (5.1 - 2600), Intel Pentium M 2.0gHz running at (1-Intel Pentium 4, 1993MHz, 512KB (0% Load)), DDR333 RAM Usage: 153/256MB (59.77%), C: 9.13gb of 19.53gb free, ; D: 0gb of 0gb free, E: 17.38gb of 17.73gb free, Current Uptime: 1day 17hrs 24mins 10secs, Record Uptime: 2wks 3days 8hrs 23mins 1sec, 3 Samsung 19" flat monitors (1 Trinitron, 2 CRT).
18:12:23 <alex_joni_> centrino?
18:12:38 <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> No, pentium M. not centrino.
18:12:43 <alex_joni_> ahh
18:12:45 <alex_joni_> ok ;)
18:12:56 <alex_joni_> I have a 1.4GHz centrino on my laptop
18:13:06 <Mer> Mer has quit
18:13:11 <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> I honestly don't know the difference between the centrino and the pentium M.
18:13:39 <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> I use the laptop to play, if I need the power, I use my desktop.
18:13:41 <A-L-P-H-A> Time: 13:12:47 -0500 GMT, Windows XP Professional, Service Pack 2 (5.1 - 2600), AMD XP 2800+ running at (1-AMD , 2123MHz, 512KB (22% Load)), DDR400 RAM Usage: 638/1024MB (62.30%), C: 59.84gb of 75.42gb free, D: 21.77gb of 39.05gb free, E: 141.82gb of 372.62gb free, Current Uptime: 1wk 2days 1hr 36mins 45secs, Record Uptime: 3wks 6hrs 56mins 16secs, 3 Samsung 19" flat monitors (1 Trinitron, 2 CRT).
18:14:02 <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> I have got to edit the laptop's strings completely.
18:17:09 <alex_joni_> the pentium M is a modified pentium 4
18:17:18 <alex_joni_> the centrino is a completely new architecture
18:17:24 <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> ahh.
18:17:27 <alex_joni_> designed from the ground up for mobile
18:17:38 <alex_joni_> I had a 2.66 GHz pentium 4 laptop
18:17:48 <alex_joni_> with a desktop processor in it
18:18:02 <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> must have been warm to work with.
18:18:05 <alex_joni_> and I changed it with the 1.4 centrino I have now
18:18:12 <alex_joni_> almost the same speed
18:18:23 <alex_joni_> the processor is a tiny bit slower
18:18:29 <alex_joni_> but overall it's much better
18:18:32 <alex_joni_> :)
18:18:38 <alex_joni_> almost no cooler-activity
18:18:45 <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> I don't even know why I bought this laptop.
18:18:47 <alex_joni_> 4h uptime
18:18:55 <alex_joni_> it's a lot lighter
18:19:01 <alex_joni_> and it's got a dvd-burner
18:19:36 <picnet> picnet has joined #emc
18:19:39 <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> I have a notebook backpack from MEC.ca so weight isn't htat much of an issue with me.  If I had an attache case instead, maybe I'd worry more.
18:20:35 <alex_joni_> my eyes are all watery
18:20:45 <alex_joni_> I made sushi today... 
18:20:50 <alex_joni_> too much wasabi :D
18:21:11 <alex_joni_> it's hoooot, but nice
18:21:31 <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> wasabi isn't hot... it's sharp. :)
18:21:57 <alex_joni_> this one is hot
18:22:09 <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> time to actually get out of bed...
18:22:11 <A-L-P-H-A_laptop> bbl
18:30:21 <anonimasu> hello
18:30:26 <anonimasu> :)
18:30:31 <alex_joni_> hey an0n
18:30:55 <anonimasu> * anonimasu is re-compiling the kernel now
18:30:59 <anonimasu> with rtai+adeos :)
18:31:03 <alex_joni_> cool
18:31:31 <anonimasu> now the question is where do I point --with-rtai= when ./configuring emc
18:32:36 <alex_joni_> actually you shouldn't
18:32:59 <alex_joni_> the ./configure should figure it out
18:33:09 <alex_joni_> * alex_joni_ talks about emc2
18:33:17 <anonimasu> hm.. I do too..
18:33:21 <anonimasu> an0n@localhost:~/emc2$ ./configure
18:33:24 <anonimasu> checking for RT dir... 
18:33:34 <alex_joni_> and? ... not found?
18:33:44 <alex_joni_> you need to make and install rtai
18:33:46 <alex_joni_> make
18:33:48 <alex_joni_> make install
18:33:55 <anonimasu> configure: error: RT not found, try to specify one by --with-rtai=<path>, --with-rtlinux=<path>, --with-rtlinuxpro=<path>
18:33:59 <anonimasu> I did that already..
18:34:06 <anonimasu> although I am not running the rtai kernel right now
18:34:07 <alex_joni_> did it install to /usr/realtime ?
18:34:17 <anonimasu> no
18:34:24 <alex_joni_> but where?
18:34:43 <alex_joni_> what rtai do you have?
18:34:50 <alex_joni_> the 24.1.x one?
18:34:54 <anonimasu> rtai-24.1.13
18:34:56 <alex_joni_> or rtai-3.x ?
18:35:02 <alex_joni_> bummer.. pretty old
18:35:11 <alex_joni_> there is a make realtimeinstall
18:35:23 <alex_joni_> don't remember how it's called exactly
18:35:36 <alex_joni_> make sure you copy the sources to /usr/src/rtai...
18:35:43 <alex_joni_> it'll work like that too
18:35:56 <alex_joni_> * alex_joni_ is away: gotta leave for a while
18:36:03 <alex_joni_> I'll be back later
18:36:05 <anonimasu> ok
18:36:54 <anonimasu> ah.. there it was :)
18:40:18 <anonimasu> brb
18:41:17 <gezr> morning yall
18:50:47 <dave-e> dave-e has joined #emc
18:58:57 <dave-e> ray...you there?
18:59:58 <alex_joni_> * alex_joni_ is back
19:00:08 <alex_joni_> bugger it...
19:00:21 <alex_joni_> I managed to slam the car door over my finger
19:00:26 <dave-e> talent?
19:00:33 <dave-e> like  ouch
19:00:42 <anonimasu> ouch
19:00:43 <alex_joni_> like really ouch
19:00:50 <alex_joni_> it even closed fully
19:01:18 <anonimasu> :/
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19:06:32 <anonimasu> hm lets see if it compiles :)
19:06:34 <alex_joni_> what tcl/tk did you install?
19:06:34 <anonimasu> the one from the debian package..
19:06:35 <anonimasu> latest.. stable.. 
19:06:36 <anonimasu> I belive
19:06:37 <alex_joni_> ok, should be pretty new
19:06:42 <anonimasu> 8.5
19:06:50 <alex_joni_> I only have 7.4
19:06:51 <alex_joni_> :D
19:07:01 <alex_joni_> hope ./configure works for 8.5
19:07:14 <anonimasu> :)
19:07:35 <alex_joni_> if it doesn't .. blame me :)
19:07:49 <anonimasu> just need the dev libs..
19:08:08 <anonimasu> I should write a howto on how to do this :)
19:08:14 <alex_joni_> you could...
19:08:15 <alex_joni_> ;)
19:08:22 <alex_joni_> I did once
19:08:28 <anonimasu> I wonder if it's be useful..
19:08:30 <alex_joni_> but I can't find it anymore :)
19:08:38 <alex_joni_> it's very system specific
19:09:04 <anonimasu> but once libnml is fixed it's a problem anymore
19:10:03 <anonimasu> cc1: /usr/src/rtai-24.1.13/scripts/realtime-config/include: Not a directory
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19:15:11 <anonimasu> it thought my realtime-config was the includes dir..
19:15:11 <alex_joni_> ./configure should have found it by itself thou
19:15:11 <anonimasu> yeah
19:15:11 <anonimasu> but that might be the problem with the fact that my rtai is old..
19:15:11 <anonimasu> :)
19:15:14 <alex_joni_> there is "make install_rt_devel"
19:15:18 <alex_joni_> inside rtai
19:15:24 <alex_joni_> it should work with this rtai too
19:15:36 <alex_joni_> I have a 24.1.14 and it works
19:15:57 <anonimasu> ah now :)
19:16:07 <anonimasu> didnt see that in the readme..
19:16:20 <alex_joni_> what?
19:16:30 <anonimasu> make install_rt_devel
19:16:32 <anonimasu> :)
19:16:35 <alex_joni_> ;)
19:16:45 <alex_joni_> it should copy stuff to /usr/realtime
19:16:49 <alex_joni_> that's the default
19:16:57 <anonimasu> yep
19:16:59 <alex_joni_> for rtai-24.1.x and for rtai-3.x
19:17:06 <anonimasu> it dosent say there's a make install_rt_devel.. 
19:17:08 <anonimasu> :)
19:17:16 <alex_joni_> why did you chose 24.1.13?
19:17:19 <anonimasu> I miss my zsh modification..
19:17:32 <anonimasu> I didnt know which one to use..
19:18:12 <alex_joni_> I would have gotten a 3.0x one
19:21:32 <anonimasu> I might upgrade it tomorrow..
19:21:32 <anonimasu> :)(
19:21:32 <alex_joni_> I have 3.0r4 here right now
19:21:35 <alex_joni_> if it works... it's not worth the effort
19:21:35 <anonimasu> it does..
19:21:35 <anonimasu> but I need to reboot with my new and shuny kernel ;)
19:21:35 <alex_joni_> you need to recompile kernel & stuff
19:21:35 <alex_joni_> hopefully without oopses
19:21:35 <anonimasu> insmod: error inserting '/home/an0n/emc2/rtlib/hal_lib.o': -1 Invalid module format
19:21:35 <anonimasu> ERROR: Could not load 'rtapi'
19:21:35 <anonimasu> ERROR: Could not load 'hal_lib'
19:21:35 <anonimasu> yep..
19:21:35 <anonimasu> already done that.. I just have to reboot :)
19:21:35 <anonimasu> brb..
19:21:35 <alex_joni_> o0k
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19:32:04 <robin_sz> meep
19:32:58 <gezr> robin_sz : oh cool, I was just thinking about you
19:33:32 <alex_joni_> meep indeed
19:33:48 <robin_sz> * robin_sz bounces
19:33:54 <gezr> robin_sz : hey, when you talk about blasting all together, I have a question about my generator, should I disassemble it or try and do it together, and tape off what I can or just do it with care, and then blow out any glass left over inside?
19:34:54 <gezr> the thing is exposed to teh atmosphere and I would expect them to accept a certian level of contamination
19:34:57 <robin_sz> its a car style one isnt it? with like holes to the outside world?
19:35:07 <gezr> yeah
19:35:14 <robin_sz> hmmm
19:35:20 <robin_sz> and you REALLY sure
19:35:25 <robin_sz> you wann blast it?
19:35:44 <gezr> no Im not
19:35:58 <robin_sz> id go fir NOT then
19:36:01 <alex_joni_> can anybody tell me how to change the nick in KSirc?
19:36:25 <gezr> doesnt /nick newnickname  work?
19:36:37 <alex_joni_> alex_joni_ is now known as alex_joni
19:36:38 <robin_sz> lets face it ... what you are about to do is the mechanical equivalent of open heart surgery on your bike .. and then kicking the bits about a desert for a while :)
19:37:08 <gezr> robin_sz : yeah, during a dust storm at that
19:37:11 <alex_joni> better now
19:37:14 <robin_sz> quite
19:37:55 <robin_sz> personally, Id bolt the outside cases up as much as posible and REALLY plaug all the external holes ... then Id blast it as one lump
19:38:09 <robin_sz> IME, tape lasts about 0.3 seconds
19:38:12 <gezr> It doesnt really matter I guess, it would be nice to have a shinny like new power plant, then again, it doesnt matter if it doesnt run
19:38:28 <robin_sz> hmmm
19:38:45 <gezr> i mean why make it shine if I cant make it run
19:38:58 <alex_joni> first make it run..
19:39:04 <alex_joni> then.. maybe make it shiny
19:39:04 <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
19:39:11 <alex_joni> but if it runs...
19:39:12 <gezr> ill clean up the stuff I should and can clean, get it all together, and if it lasts a few years I can do it again
19:39:14 <A-L-P-H-A> A-L-P-H-A is now known as alpha_snow_blind
19:39:16 <alex_joni> don't touch it
19:39:22 <robin_sz> well, making some bits shiny is easy now
19:39:27 <robin_sz> * robin_sz lurrrrvrvs snow
19:39:42 <gezr> they say a brewmasters cleaner stuff works I think
19:39:51 <alpha_snow_blind> robin_sz... well... you are more than welcome to shovel my driveway next time. :)
19:40:04 <gezr> that would be the shiz, most stuff that touches that aluminum turns it an odd grey color
19:40:07 <robin_sz> shovel? .. thats a GURLS way of clearing snow
19:44:03 <alpha_snow_blind> if I ever buy house that hasn't yet had the driveway paved... I'm going to get a heated driveway and pathway.
19:44:03 <alex_joni> you need to plans some big crackers before snowfall
19:44:03 <alpha_snow_blind> let it run allllllll night when it's snowing... so the snow just melts and flows away
19:44:03 <alex_joni> s/plans/plant/
19:44:03 <alpha_snow_blind> alex_joni. that made no sense to me.
19:44:03 <alex_joni> big fireworks
19:44:03 <gezr> haHAHAHA
19:44:03 <alpha_snow_blind> i'm lost.
19:44:03 <alex_joni> once you have enough snow.. just blow them up
19:44:03 <robin_sz> alpha_snow_blind: forming a wet river on the sidewalk .. which freezes. your neighbour slips and sues you. 
19:44:03 <alex_joni> it'll clean out everything
19:44:03 <alpha_snow_blind> robin_sz, I have no sidewalk. :)
19:44:03 <gezr> wouldn't a gas powered snow blower cost thousands less then an installed heat system?
19:44:03 <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
19:44:03 <alex_joni> robin: I think his heated driveway would be very heated
19:44:03 <robin_sz> wasy to build too
19:44:03 <alex_joni> water simply vaporizes
19:44:06 <alex_joni> :D
19:44:06 <alpha_snow_blind> that would take lots of energy... but I like it.
19:44:06 <robin_sz> * robin_sz specs his snow-blower
19:44:06 <alpha_snow_blind> maybe flame throwers on the curb way too...
19:44:06 <robin_sz> small-block chevy 
19:44:06 <alpha_snow_blind> hmm!!! AWESOME idea... snowblower + flamer thrower in one.
19:44:06 <robin_sz> with nitrous
19:44:06 <gezr> with a snow blower you could charge your neighbors
19:44:06 <gezr> hahaha, a blown snow blower
19:44:06 <alpha_snow_blind> my next door neightbour is an ass.
19:44:06 <robin_sz> ahh. 
19:44:06 <robin_sz> then 
19:44:06 <robin_sz> you need ...
19:44:06 <robin_sz> JET ENGINE
19:44:14 <gezr> and blow it all into your neighbors yard
19:44:17 <robin_sz> now ... thats waht I call a snow blower :)
19:44:21 <alpha_snow_blind> hehe... I soooo want to make a jet engine... a tiny one...
19:44:25 <alex_joni> * alex_joni would advise to buy an afterburner too
19:44:28 <gezr> pop the garrage, fire it up
19:49:38 <alpha_snow_blind> I wonder if I could...
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19:49:41 <alex_joni> hmmm.. .these loggers seem to come in pairs
19:49:41 <alex_joni> I think they hooked-up
19:49:41 <alex_joni> lol
19:49:41 <alpha_snow_blind> heh
19:49:41 <alpha_snow_blind> ears are so cold. 
19:49:41 <robin_sz> 4yr old comes in .. "daddy, what would you like for tea?" .. I tell him "a potato and some ketchup" ..
19:49:41 <alpha_snow_blind> hahahaha
19:49:43 <alpha_snow_blind> rolf.
19:49:48 <alex_joni> lol
19:49:50 <alpha_snow_blind> you are going to confuse your kid sooo much
19:49:52 <alpha_snow_blind> lol
19:49:54 <robin_sz> he goes out and yells downstairs .. "mum .. make daddy a potato and soem ketchup!" ... thats training that is .. get em young ;))
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20:34:25 <niven.freenode.net> topic is: Welcome to the Enhanced Machine Control forum | Regular Developer's meetings every Sunday between 14:00 & 18:00 GMT
20:34:25 <niven.freenode.net> Users on #emc: logger_aj ne1r logger_jmk robin_sz picnet gezr A-L-P-H-A_laptop jmkasunich CIA-9 alex_joni rayh SteveStallings acemi Imperator_ pemmet asdfqwega @ChanServ zwisk jepler learath anonimasu @pc_op danfalck cradek A-L-P-H-A ccjoe 
20:35:08 <rayh> Darn  I'm not getting full debug on this one I'll drop back to 46.
20:36:16 <rayh> Moving to 220b
20:36:27 <rayh> With you in a minute or two.
20:36:32 <alex_joni> I think I'm doing smthg wrong
20:37:01 <jmkasunich> I have my emc2/tkemc running, what exactly was the question?
20:37:16 <alex_joni> if you hit spindle_reverse
20:37:20 <alex_joni> does it say reverse?
20:37:44 <jmkasunich> nope - the button continues to say forward
20:38:00 <jmkasunich> off -> off
20:38:07 <jmkasunich> forward -> forward
20:38:10 <jmkasunich> reverse -> forward
20:38:16 <alex_joni> that's what I asked
20:39:32 <alex_joni> wtf
20:39:48 <alex_joni> now when starting emc I get a "motion>" prompt
20:39:53 <jmkasunich> looking at the tcl now, trying to find the code that displays the button
20:39:59 <jmkasunich> hmmm
20:40:05 <alex_joni> bugger
20:40:09 <jmkasunich> that means you started usrmot I think
20:40:11 <alex_joni> I uncommented usrmot
20:40:16 <alex_joni> instead of tkemc
20:40:18 <alex_joni> :)
20:40:21 <jmkasunich> bugger? you're starting to talk like a brit
20:40:37 <alex_joni> I've been around paul too much ;)
20:40:39 <rayh> Near the bottom of the file in a process named update????
20:41:45 <alex_joni> rayh: does it work properly for you?
20:41:53 <alex_joni> pushing spindle_reverse ?
20:42:08 <asdfqwega> Ach, crivens!
20:42:39 <asdfqwega> I'm going to have to send in an email so Paul will know...
20:42:43 <rayh> I'm not able to get emc2 going right now.
20:43:27 <alex_joni> ok.. I'll dig further
20:43:44 <jmkasunich> I have tkemc.tcl open in an editor, and tkemc/emc2 running
20:43:46 <jmkasunich> anything I can do?
20:43:51 <asdfqwega> emc-0.0.1-11.deb = works, but can only run EMC once - run again after closing, system freezes
20:43:59 <rayh>     if {[emc_spindle] == "forward"} {
20:43:59 <rayh>         set spindlelabel "SPINDLE FORWARD"
20:43:59 <rayh>     } elseif {[emc_spindle] == "reverse"} {
20:43:59 <rayh>         set spindlelabel "SPINDLE REVERSE"
20:43:59 <rayh>     } elseif {[emc_spindle] == "off"} {
20:44:00 <rayh>         set spindlelabel "SPINDLE OFF"
20:44:02 <rayh>     } elseif {[emc_spindle] == "increase"} {
20:44:03 <rayh>         set spindlelabel "SPINDLE INCREASE"
20:44:05 <rayh>     } elseif {[emc_spindle] == "decrease"} {
20:44:07 <rayh>         set spindlelabel "SPINDLE DECREASE"
20:44:10 <rayh>     } else {
20:44:12 <rayh>         set spindlelabel "SPINDLE ?"
20:44:14 <rayh>     }
20:44:16 <alex_joni> ok ok
20:44:27 <rayh> That's the tickle that changes the definitions of spindlelabel
20:44:48 <alex_joni> and emc_spindle comes from where?
20:45:12 <alex_joni> there is a emcioStatus.spindle. struct
20:45:18 <rayh> emc_spindle is a command sent to and interpreted by emcsh.
20:45:20 <alex_joni> it's got direction as a pin
20:46:06 <alex_joni> I think the spindlelable is set by the feedback from the io-stuff
20:46:12 <alex_joni> and that's not correct
20:46:35 <rayh> emc_spindle (none) | forward | reverse | increase | decrease | constant | off
20:46:36 <rayh>   With no arg, returns the value of the spindle state as "forward",
20:46:36 <rayh>   "reverse", "increase", "decrease", or "off". With arg, sends the spindle
20:46:36 <rayh>   command. Note that "increase" and "decrease" will cause a speed change in
20:46:36 <rayh>   the corresponding direction until a "constant" command is sent.
20:47:07 <rayh> that's from emcsh.cc
20:47:31 <jmkasunich> looks like emcStatus->io.spindle.direction is the key
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20:48:03 <alex_joni> I agree
20:48:08 <alex_joni> I know what's wrong
20:48:19 <alex_joni> the spindle_on has no test for negative speeds
20:48:30 <alex_joni> and the direction is always 0
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20:48:53 <alex_joni> the EMC_SPINDLE_REVERSE_TYPE messages never get sent
20:49:03 <alex_joni> I'm not sure why those exist
20:49:22 <jmkasunich> probably to make us confused
20:49:48 <alex_joni> I'll fix it soon
20:49:59 <robin_sz> * robin_sz hands alex_joni a hammer
20:50:28 <alex_joni> that did help
20:52:29 <CIA-9> 03alex_joni * 10emc2/src/emc/iotask/simIoControl.cc: fixed a bug that prevented GUI's from showing the reverse direction of the spindle
20:53:29 <gezr> sigh, it would appear that I dont have a valve cover
20:53:40 <alex_joni> jmk: short question
20:54:06 <jmkasunich> shoot
20:54:07 <alex_joni> is it safe to do *(iocontrol_data->spindle_out)++; ??
20:54:18 <alex_joni> where spindle_out is a float
20:54:32 <robin_sz> ooh. the HP 'LightScribe' cd technology looks kewl
20:54:56 <jmkasunich> should be
20:55:07 <alex_joni> hmmm...
20:55:11 <jmkasunich> I usually don't use ++ with floats, I'd write it as += 1.0
20:55:11 <alex_joni> doesn't seem to change
20:55:17 <alex_joni> ok
20:55:18 <jmkasunich> but either one should work
20:55:31 <jmkasunich> that is a HAL pin?
20:55:46 <alex_joni> yes
20:55:56 <ne1r> ne1r has quit
20:56:19 <jmkasunich> try (*(iocontrol_data->spindle_out))++;
20:56:43 <jmkasunich> I don't know the precedence between * and ++, maybe it's invcrementing the pointer instead of the thing pointed to
20:57:06 <alex_joni> it works now
20:57:10 <jmkasunich> parenthesis are cheap, I use them whenever I have any doubt
20:57:11 <alex_joni> I did the +=1.0;
20:57:46 <jmkasunich> I think ++ is higher than *
20:57:47 <alex_joni> works now
20:57:52 <jmkasunich> cool
20:58:19 <jmkasunich> yeah.. think about something like this:
20:58:23 <jmkasunich> char *c;
20:58:28 <jmkasunich> for (something)
20:58:36 <jmkasunich>   *c++ = 0;
20:58:53 <jmkasunich> that doesn't increment the thing pointed to by c, it incs c
21:00:26 <alex_joni> I have one more complain about HAL
21:00:28 <alex_joni> ;)
21:00:47 <alex_joni> when I shut down EMC it stopps all my halmeter's
21:00:52 <alex_joni> that bugs me
21:01:05 <alex_joni> EMC didn't start them... 
21:02:14 <jmkasunich> that's the run script, not HAL itself
21:02:21 <alex_joni> I know ;)
21:02:28 <alex_joni> and I know why that's done
21:02:38 <jmkasunich> the run script assumes that you're done with EMC, so it does "realtime stop"
21:02:50 <jmkasunich> so _all_ HAL stuff has to be shut down
21:03:45 <alex_joni> how's the rework going?
21:03:50 <alex_joni> refactor
21:03:55 <jmkasunich> slowly
21:04:06 <jmkasunich> Jonathan Stark (zwisk) has made much progress
21:04:10 <jmkasunich> me, not so much
21:04:24 <alex_joni> I've seen some commit from both of you
21:04:28 <jmkasunich> I have to dig out from under some other things so I can concentrate on it
21:05:07 <alex_joni> * alex_joni goes to take a bath
21:05:18 <alex_joni> I think I'll crash after that
21:05:20 <CIA-9> 03alex_joni * 10emc2/src/emc/iotask/ioControl.cc: added HAL pins for coolant (mist, flood), lube and spindle (a bunch of them to keep it flexible)
21:05:39 <alex_joni> CIA is slow today
21:07:55 <alex_joni> good night guys
21:08:06 <jmkasunich> good night
21:08:25 <alex_joni> alex_joni has left #emc
21:16:52 <Imperator_> Imperator_ has quit
21:22:09 <rayh> rayh has quit
21:28:27 <gezr> found my valve cover
21:28:50 <gezr> its 80 miles to the south
21:32:42 <gezr> damn Carson is dead
21:32:54 <gezr> Jonny that is
21:39:41 <robin_sz> who?
21:40:55 <robin_sz> how is les doinbg with segmot? .. last I heard it was just waiitng for limit switches to work?
21:42:23 <picnet> Â/msg robin_sz my z axis rebuild is almost complete,now its using a minitec linear, much stronger - remaining bit is to put a stepper & screw to pull the router up & down.
21:42:29 <picnet> humm
21:42:49 <robin_sz> hah
21:43:26 <robin_sz> good job you did that in a trivial /msg not one of those msgs about the swedish donkey pr0n sites huh?
21:46:16 <asdfqwega> Bugger.
21:46:34 <asdfqwega> limits and home switches are not working
21:47:01 <picnet> definately.
21:47:10 <picnet> damm ssh connection gets bum characters, which is odd.
21:47:16 <robin_sz> weird
21:47:33 <robin_sz> * robin_sz has never seen that
21:50:34 <asdfqwega> I wonder if emc1 CVS will compile with paul's 2.6-adeos kernel...
21:51:44 <asdfqwega> I might have to a complete re-install...again!  O Woe!  O Discordia!
21:52:25 <robin_sz> pour quoi?
21:52:53 <robin_sz> ruh roh, wife is singing again
21:53:35 <robin_sz> sigh ... that means we need to buy more milk
21:54:18 <Mer> Mer has joined #EMC
21:54:33 <Mer> Mer has quit
21:58:18 <picnet> singing?
21:59:56 <ne1r> ne1r has joined #EMC
22:01:11 <robin_sz> singing ... 
22:01:15 <robin_sz> funny noise
22:01:19 <robin_sz> curdles milk
22:01:36 <picnet> ah
22:03:43 <picnet> you know how direct the finns are? no noises this end...
22:07:54 <picnet> bbt
22:08:03 <robin_sz> still having VOIP fun .. got a voip server in london
22:08:13 <robin_sz> trunked to a bix in the house 
22:08:15 <robin_sz> box
22:08:22 <A-L-P-H-A> This is horrible.  My ways are lining up... I'm getting 0.003 over 3 inches on the Z axis on my lathe... :(
22:08:26 <A-L-P-H-A> are=aren't
22:08:45 <A-L-P-H-A> I reoiled everything, and took it off, to measure how I am... but now... argh. :(
22:09:08 <robin_sz> is it consitent all the way up the bed?
22:09:43 <A-L-P-H-A> robin_sz... I have no threading attachment.  The ways are adjustable... I disassembled the ways to reoil everything.
22:10:03 <robin_sz> the ways are adjustable? .. 
22:10:07 <robin_sz> * robin_sz ponders
22:10:15 <A-L-P-H-A> lets see if i can find a picture of my lathe.
22:11:16 <robin_sz> I presume you have the usual bar of silver steel and a DTI?
22:11:40 <A-L-P-H-A> I have ground drillrod which I can use.
22:11:57 <A-L-P-H-A> how am I supposed ot line it up?
22:12:10 <robin_sz> put rod in chuck
22:12:16 <robin_sz> put DTI on saddle
22:12:30 <robin_sz> traverse the rod, D|TI satys constant
22:12:48 <robin_sz> if it doesnt ... you need to adjust stuff ;)
22:12:51 <A-L-P-H-A> so, just lots of try and error.
22:12:53 <A-L-P-H-A> :)
22:13:09 <robin_sz> try and kee one end fixed ..
22:13:17 <robin_sz> like say the chuck end
22:13:21 <A-L-P-H-A> http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ateliermecanique.ch/parc_de_machines/parc_de_machines_tournage/tour_schaublin_102/images/TOUR102.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.ateliermecanique.ch/parc_de_machines/parc_de_machines_tournage/tour_schaublin_102/tour_schaublin_102.htm&h=375&w=500&sz=20&tbnid=Jn61S_Q37SwJ:&tbnh=95&tbnw=126&start=10&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dschaublin%2B102%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26c2coff%3D1%26sa%3DG this is like my lathe.
22:13:28 <robin_sz> then you onl have the other end to mess with
22:13:55 <A-L-P-H-A> the top way can change the angle... so you can do tapers and stuff.
22:15:05 <robin_sz> ah yes
22:15:12 <robin_sz> not the bed/saddle
22:15:14 <A-L-P-H-A> http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.strm.fr/images/photos/schaublin-102-reconstruit-02.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.strm.fr/francais/schaublin.html&h=400&w=533&sz=39&tbnid=YE5NYgZzodcJ:&tbnh=96&tbnw=127&start=17&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dschaublin%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26c2coff%3D1 would you believe this lathe costs $28K CDN?
22:15:22 <robin_sz> but the cross-slide
22:15:29 <A-L-P-H-A> the bed is perfect.  the crossslides yeah.
22:15:35 <robin_sz> well the .. umm top crosssldie
22:15:53 <robin_sz> well, does it *really* matter if it not 0 degrees?
22:16:05 <A-L-P-H-A> I'd like it to be perfect. :) hehe.
22:16:14 <robin_sz> you dont use that to turn stuff though
22:16:24 <robin_sz> just sort of fine depth setting
22:16:36 <A-L-P-H-A> I only have 90mm of travel... but if I move 75mm, and it's off by 0.003".
22:16:39 <A-L-P-H-A> umm.
22:16:40 <A-L-P-H-A> sec.
22:16:49 <robin_sz> yes .. I can imagine
22:16:57 <robin_sz> * robin_sz doesnt think it matters
22:17:18 <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.dreyfus.ch/schaublin_102n80.html <-- see how this has no thread cutting.  So the travel is only based on the cross slides.
22:17:53 <robin_sz> ahhh
22:17:55 <robin_sz> right
22:18:02 <A-L-P-H-A> that's a newer version of my lathe.
22:18:08 <robin_sz> no big wheel on the apron
22:18:17 <A-L-P-H-A> stupid lathe that has only 90mm of travel, costing $28K :(
22:18:24 <robin_sz> heh
22:18:29 <robin_sz> watchmakers lathe
22:18:32 <A-L-P-H-A> yeah.
22:18:41 <A-L-P-H-A> it's Converted to CNC... so I just make it do what I want.
22:18:53 <robin_sz> with more pedals than a piano
22:19:00 <A-L-P-H-A> you know... I wouldn't mind making a watch. :) hehe.
22:19:35 <robin_sz> the down side to cross-slides like that
22:19:52 <robin_sz> is you cant take any deep cuts when it the upper slide is 'out'
22:20:52 <robin_sz> not that you take deep cuts on a schaublin
22:21:22 <A-L-P-H-A> http://www.strm.fr/francais/schaublin.html <-- wait this it the $28K lathe...
22:21:29 <A-L-P-H-A> the other one was $18K.
22:21:53 <A-L-P-H-A> plus a ton for shipping. :(
22:22:25 <jmkasunich> didja ever notice that just about any "clean up" project makes more mess than you had before (at least for a while)?
22:23:06 <robin_sz> yes
22:23:08 <robin_sz> well
22:23:12 <robin_sz> on emc it does
22:23:24 <jmkasunich> that too ;-)
22:23:29 <robin_sz> but thats because theres more mess than you first notice :)
22:23:34 <jmkasunich> but I wasn't talking about emc, I was talking about my basement
22:23:38 <robin_sz> ick
22:23:40 <robin_sz> but thats because theres more mess than you first notice :)
22:23:41 <A-L-P-H-A> jmkasunich, well.. I cleaned up my shop... and it's cleaner... acceptable to show people at least. :)
22:23:57 <robin_sz> I spent 2 days with a forklift cleaning my shop
22:23:59 <A-L-P-H-A> this guy is hardcore. http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7729&page=1&pp=5 on a chip drill, he's done this.
22:24:00 <A-L-P-H-A> hehehe
22:24:07 <A-L-P-H-A> that's funny to me.
22:24:19 <A-L-P-H-A> the runnout on the bearings must be massive.
22:24:23 <jmkasunich> show people?  I can barely walk around mine myself... 
22:27:14 <robin_sz> had to buy a wall full of pallet racking in the end to make some storage
22:28:05 <robin_sz> that reminds me, must fork the bank of oxygen bottles under a tarp
22:28:51 <robin_sz> before the rep comes and sptts I have them :)
22:29:02 <A-L-P-H-A> this guy on the CNCZONE actually has done a decent job [in my opinion]
22:29:21 <robin_sz> yeah, but a VERY specialist machine
22:29:46 <anonimasu> hehe
22:29:51 <anonimasu> :)
22:30:01 <anonimasu> I wouldnt want to show anyone my mill..
22:30:13 <anonimasu> I've got so much stuff to do.. like re-machine my motor mounts..
22:30:25 <anonimasu> they are temporary right now..
22:31:43 <robin_sz> temporay = nasty to look at?
22:32:04 <gezr> im about to give up on making this whole darn thing shine
22:32:05 <anonimasu> yeah
22:32:14 <anonimasu> they arent as rigid as I want the,..
22:32:24 <robin_sz> gezr: put it back together and ride the SOAB
22:32:28 <anonimasu> the,..
22:32:28 <gezr> its much better to only shine what I can, that way I minimize damage :)
22:32:44 <robin_sz> is it snowing?
22:32:48 <anonimasu> need re-machine my bearing mounts also..
22:32:49 <gezr> robin_sz : amen, ill clean what I can easly clean, and go from there, 
22:33:00 <anonimasu> so I'll machine that and the motor mounts out of one piece-..
22:33:09 <anonimasu> for tensioning the belts..
22:33:12 <robin_sz> right
22:33:20 <anonimasu> but I need a boaring head first..
22:33:34 <robin_sz> coo
22:33:35 <anonimasu> or well, it arrives next month..
22:33:36 <anonimasu> :)
22:33:42 <anonimasu> I've got one ordered
22:33:48 <gezr> robin_sz : and what doesnt look good, Ill cover with something, maybe chiclen wire, and then ill mount a 2.5kg sledge hammer to it some how, 
22:34:04 <anonimasu> a-l-p-h-a: I am jealous of that lathe
22:34:14 <gezr> a gun mount like one for an atv would be a bit excessive
22:34:23 <A-L-P-H-A> that isn't mine.
22:34:31 <anonimasu> :/
22:34:31 <A-L-P-H-A> I'll photo mine, and post them up.
22:34:35 <anonimasu> my lathe is crap
22:34:39 <robin_sz> * robin_sz searches for a photo of his lathe
22:34:54 <anonimasu> it's nto rigid enough to do real work on
22:34:57 <anonimasu> not..
22:35:10 <jmkasunich> my current project: http://www.tbcs-online.de/assets/images/as4100.jpg
22:35:23 <jmkasunich> the one on the right - I have two of those racks, making shelves for them
22:35:23 <anonimasu> jmkasunich: neat
22:35:26 <robin_sz> http://www.redpoint.org.uk/photos/misc/new_toy.jpg
22:35:44 <anonimasu> nice lathe aswell
22:36:03 <gezr> that is so sweet
22:36:03 <robin_sz> jmkasunich: is that a machine or a rack?
22:36:28 <jmkasunich> rack - I tossed the servers back in the skip
22:36:33 <robin_sz> heh
22:36:35 <anonimasu> I wish I had a lathe like that :)
22:36:45 <jmkasunich> nice lathe
22:36:46 <robin_sz> 350gbp I paid ..
22:36:55 <jmkasunich> interesting QC toolpost
22:37:04 <robin_sz> with 3 and 4 jawas, toolholders and a facplate
22:37:18 <robin_sz> jmkasunich: standard piston toolpost, dickson T3
22:37:18 <anonimasu> robin_sz: I hate you a little ;)
22:37:23 <anonimasu> robin_sz: *jealous*
22:37:31 <anonimasu> hehe
22:37:43 <jmkasunich> standard on your side of the pond maybe
22:37:49 <anonimasu> lathes like that are 3800$
22:37:50 <jmkasunich> here the standard is the aloris style
22:37:52 <anonimasu> over here..
22:38:13 <anonimasu> super expensive
22:38:20 <robin_sz> the nice mod on it is the fwd-off-reverse lever
22:38:23 <jmkasunich> anonimasu: where is "over here"
22:38:26 <anonimasu> sweden
22:38:29 <robin_sz> to the right of the apron, that red handle?
22:38:57 <robin_sz> means you dont lean past the chuck
22:39:09 <anonimasu> thoose levers are great when you have to change piece..
22:39:30 <anonimasu> or when you have to check on the piece you are working on
22:39:30 <anonimasu> :)
22:39:58 <robin_sz> or when you start it up and the piece leaves by the short route ..
22:40:07 <anonimasu> hehe :D
22:40:13 <anonimasu> it's too slow usually
22:40:22 <robin_sz> jmkasunich: was that full of AS400s before you dumped it?
22:40:36 <anonimasu> been there done that..
22:40:37 <gezr> I love the fact the thread engagement is on the propper side, who ever decided to put that on the right side of the saddle is just crazy
22:40:39 <jmkasunich> dunno, what's an AS400?
22:40:48 <robin_sz> ibm server
22:41:01 <jmkasunich> this was DEC, not ibm
22:41:02 <robin_sz> since the racks an as4100 .. ??
22:41:04 <robin_sz> k
22:41:09 <anonimasu> and with a nice gearbox
22:41:32 <jmkasunich> two boxes, each with 4x 400MHz alpha CPUs on some kind of proprietary backplane
22:41:34 <anonimasu> I'd love to do threading if I wouldnt have to change gears..
22:41:40 <jmkasunich> and proprietary memory
22:41:43 <robin_sz> right
22:41:51 <jmkasunich> the other rack was an "enterprise storage array
22:41:53 <anonimasu> it's great :)
22:41:56 <robin_sz> almost useable ... but not worht the space
22:42:11 <jmkasunich> something like 30 drives, at 2G each
22:42:20 <robin_sz> jmkasunich: big disks
22:42:20 <robin_sz> hah
22:42:36 <jmkasunich> the racks are worth far more than the contents now
22:42:37 <robin_sz> almost a whole laptops worth then ;)
22:42:53 <jmkasunich> there are two full extension ball-bearing shelves
22:43:00 <robin_sz> nice
22:43:05 <jmkasunich> soon to hold the compile farm and on of my other rackmount PCs
22:43:25 <anonimasu> who here did I talk to about bearings? 
22:43:28 <jmkasunich> lots of other brackets that I'm reworking to hold 18mm plywood shelves for storage
22:43:33 <robin_sz> "help me junk these servers and drives, but dont damage the ball-bearings, theyre worth something" :)
22:43:46 <jmkasunich> you got it!
22:44:14 <jmkasunich> actually, the drives were already pulled - corporate data security folks need to wipe them
22:44:28 <robin_sz> with a hammer hopefully
22:44:38 <anonimasu> most likely
22:44:44 <jmkasunich> I just pulled and discarded the cages they mount in (hot pluggable stuff)
22:45:07 <jmkasunich> no - they have special software that rewrites each sector something like 7 times with random data
22:47:09 <jmkasunich> it's amazing how fast stuff goes obsolete...
22:47:24 <jmkasunich> those racks were new in 1997, and probably cost $100K
22:47:29 <jmkasunich> everything top of the line
22:48:27 <robin_sz> and now ... dumpster material
22:48:41 <jmkasunich> yep
22:49:07 <jmkasunich> there's something about scrapping the computer and keeping the box that seems so... sad
22:49:24 <robin_sz> sadly they would be wasting their time wiping them ... 60gb isnt worth the effort .. a hammer is quicker
22:49:36 <anonimasu> yep..
22:49:44 <anonimasu> drives are almost free nowdays
22:49:51 <robin_sz> 2gb less than free
22:49:55 <jmkasunich> they are concerned about corporate data, not the drives themselves
22:50:04 <anonimasu> yeah but a hammer.
22:50:30 <jmkasunich> somebody in some office somewhere decided that that isn't good enough
22:50:36 <anonimasu> if somone wants what they had on the drives they will get it..
22:50:46 <robin_sz> there are techniques that will read back data after many, many writes over it
22:50:50 <anonimasu> yep
22:50:51 <jmkasunich> they prefer procedures that a trained monkey can follow
22:50:53 <anonimasu> labs.. lots of them..
22:50:58 <anonimasu> :)
22:51:03 <robin_sz> I think I read about 16 times
22:51:19 <robin_sz> even ram too
22:51:24 <jmkasunich> the sw they use to wipe is approved by the us govt for destroying military data... 
22:51:39 <anonimasu> dosent the govt incinerate the hd's also?
22:51:44 <jmkasunich> don't know the details, but I'm pretty sure it works
22:51:46 <jmkasunich> don't know
22:51:50 <robin_sz> oh, well if the military thinks its safe ...
22:51:57 <jmkasunich> probalby depends on the nature of the data
22:52:00 <robin_sz> nothing beats a hammer ;)
22:52:00 <anonimasu> yep
22:52:04 <anonimasu> agreed...
22:52:10 <anonimasu> robin_sz: electromagnetic hammers ^_^
22:52:38 <jmkasunich> angle grinder on the disk surface
22:52:40 <robin_sz> reminds me of that german officer in ww2
22:53:05 <robin_sz> decided that enigma was good, but .. needed to be better
22:53:27 <robin_sz> issued instructions that the plugs placed at random in the plug-baord ...
22:53:47 <robin_sz> none could stay in the same place on the next day ..
22:54:00 <robin_sz> (stop people lazily leaving them where they were before)
22:54:37 <robin_sz> hence brought the possible combinations down by a factor of 2 or some such :)
22:55:04 <anonimasu> :D
22:55:49 <robin_sz> Imust admit, I wa suprised they could read back ram contents
22:56:15 <anonimasu> residual charge :)
22:56:26 <robin_sz> yeah
22:56:39 <robin_sz> kinda burns in if left long enough with the same data
22:57:07 <thalx> thalx has joined #emc
22:57:15 <robin_sz> flip the chip into test mode, away you go
22:57:31 <jmkasunich> hi thalx
22:57:33 <anonimasu> hehe
22:58:04 <thalx> Greetings. 
22:58:15 <schnozzy> schnozzy has joined #emc
22:59:16 <thalx> I've had a failed weekend of laptop upgrading... so back to the old we go! 
23:00:15 <thalx> And I forgot my laptop power supply when I went to Cabin Fever... so I never did get to burn any copies of the latest BDI to hand out. 
23:00:26 <thalx> But apparently that's not such a bad thing?.. 
23:00:33 <schnozzy> Has anybody here read 'CNC Robotics' by Geoff Williams?
23:01:42 <schnozzy> (book on how to build a basic 3-axis CNC machine from scratch)
23:04:58 <robin_sz> nope
23:05:00 <robin_sz> not me
23:05:53 <schnozzy> He uses a L298 and L297 for stepper motor control, I believe, so one wouldn't require an RT O/S. His example uses windows, for instance.
23:05:57 <robin_sz> half the fun is dreaming stuff up ;)
23:06:04 <robin_sz> errm
23:06:14 <robin_sz> thats not making sense
23:06:15 <schnozzy> Gotta start somewhere (and I'm just starting)
23:06:29 <schnozzy> it's not?
23:06:34 <robin_sz> the 298/297 are the motor drive
23:06:41 <robin_sz> you feed them with pulses
23:06:58 <robin_sz> those pulses have to come from soemthing all nice and even
23:07:05 <robin_sz> thats where the RT os comes in
23:07:16 <schnozzy> I thought that was the point of the stepper ic
23:07:27 <robin_sz> nope
23:07:33 <schnozzy> oh
23:07:39 <schnozzy> hrm
23:07:42 <robin_sz> it just sits there .. holding th motor in position
23:07:48 <robin_sz> 1 pulse moves it 1 step
23:08:10 <robin_sz> the 297 is the logic, the 298 is the power driver
23:08:24 <schnozzy> well, he has one circuit for the lpt, and one circuit for the driver which has a 297/298. Let me double-check...
23:08:35 <robin_sz> yes
23:08:37 <robin_sz> thats right
23:08:44 <robin_sz> pulses out the LPT
23:08:54 <robin_sz> thats the way EMC can work too
23:09:18 <robin_sz> you can generate them with EMC and a RT os ... (smoothenss assured)
23:09:24 <robin_sz> or use windows
23:09:37 <robin_sz> (non RT , so sometimes a bit rough)
23:09:40 <robin_sz> or DOS
23:09:50 <robin_sz> (often suprisingly good)
23:09:55 <schnozzy> ah... so then this example is just not 'industrial' in terms of RT performance then
23:10:01 <schnozzy> I've been windows-free for a while an dI'd like to keep it that way :)
23:10:11 <robin_sz> kewl :)
23:10:24 <robin_sz> to be fair, there is some OK 'doze stuff
23:10:30 <schnozzy> I'm a BSD-guy.
23:10:35 <robin_sz> but EMC will do the job just fine
23:10:59 <robin_sz> theres a debain based 'brain dead install'
23:11:00 <schnozzy> Some of the website stuff was a little vague... does EMC take straight G-code to do it's thing?
23:11:04 <schnozzy> yah, saw that
23:11:13 <robin_sz> yeah Gcode in .. movement out
23:11:32 <schnozzy> there didn't seem to be a lot in the way of FOSS gcode generators.
23:11:39 <robin_sz> nope :)
23:11:55 <robin_sz> but theres lots of doze software with crap protection ;)
23:13:15 <schnozzy> Not that I mind paying for good quality software, I just prefer the free kind.
23:13:15 <schnozzy> Ever built a CNC machine yourself?
23:13:22 <robin_sz> thats one place windows does excell, some excellent CAM packages out there ... I know of nothing equivalent really for *nix
23:13:36 <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
23:13:45 <schnozzy> 3 axis or more?
23:13:59 <robin_sz> 3 axis router .. and about a dozen or so 2 axis plasmas
23:14:10 <schnozzy> excellent
23:15:28 <schnozzy> how difficult/expensive was it in general to build the 3 axis?
23:15:36 <robin_sz> depends ...
23:15:50 <robin_sz> Mill, router, light duty bals cutter?
23:15:55 <robin_sz> balsa
23:16:06 <schnozzy> little heavier than that
23:16:16 <robin_sz> router? for wood?
23:16:18 <schnozzy> actually, I hadn't given it much thought to be honest
23:16:40 <robin_sz> id guess a 4x4 wood router, 2000 bucks
23:16:42 <schnozzy> I figured that the only difference would be the router that one stuck on there (and possibly cutting fluid for metal)
23:16:57 <robin_sz> rigidity for metal is greater
23:17:03 <robin_sz> best start with an old mill
23:17:29 <robin_sz> wait(1)
23:17:35 <schnozzy> 'k
23:18:44 <robin_sz> http://www.lmwatts.com/cnc.html
23:18:54 <robin_sz> thats Les' big router
23:19:04 <robin_sz> emc powered, of course
23:19:49 <robin_sz> someting like that would cost 30K and up
23:19:50 <schnozzy> checking it out now
23:20:39 <robin_sz> but .. at the other end of the scale
23:21:14 <robin_sz> there are sherline mills for $less
23:21:41 <cradek>  
23:21:47 <robin_sz> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7729&page=1&pp=5
23:22:05 <robin_sz> bet that cost less than 500 all in
23:22:20 <robin_sz> * robin_sz detests cnczone
23:22:31 <robin_sz> damn adverts
23:24:06 <schnozzy> wow
23:24:07 <schnozzy> it's a nice looking setup
23:24:17 <schnozzy> looking...
23:32:03 <anonimasu> hm, I've solved my problem with the gearbox for mu supercharger.. :)
23:32:20 <schnozzy> I see
23:32:20 <schnozzy> Definitely not looking for something as hard-core as Lee's setup. That thing is nuts.
23:32:20 <schnozzy> though I would like to be able to mill small metal brackets, but that sounds expensive.
23:32:40 <anonimasu> not nescessarily.. 
23:33:27 <anonimasu> * anonimasu stretches
23:33:27 <acemi> acemi has quit
23:34:34 <anonimasu> I found out how I solve my problem with the supercharger project now :)
23:35:00 <schnozzy> sounds like a fun project
23:35:04 <anonimasu> and I talked to my father so getting ceramic bearings will be pretty easy :)
23:35:34 <anonimasu> yeah, it is :)
23:35:35 <anonimasu> will be
23:35:39 <anonimasu> http://www.powerdyne.com/silentdr.htm
23:35:56 <anonimasu> somthing like that ;)
23:36:28 <schnozzy> which vehicle?
23:36:48 <anonimasu> toyota celica gt4
23:36:49 <anonimasu> ;)
23:39:47 <anonimasu> turbo+AWD = fun
23:40:03 <anonimasu> although supercharger + AWD has to be even funnier.. :)
23:40:06 <schnozzy> neat
23:40:06 <schnozzy> drive a WRX myself
23:40:06 <schnozzy> now when you said 'not necessarily', where you speaking to the expense of milling small metal pieces?
23:40:13 <anonimasu> yeah
23:41:45 <anonimasu> I have a spare impeller and housing.. off work, otherwise I wouldnt think about building a supercharger.. but throwing the stuff away dosent feel nice :)
23:42:15 <anonimasu> besides any supercharger costs about $2000
23:44:33 <anonimasu> how large are thoose pices you are talking about?
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